Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

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JRN
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Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by JRN »

The Wikipedia page for list of countries by road network size includes a column for "Expressway length", but I believe the figure given for the UK is wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... twork_size

The figure currently given is:
12,442 km

If true, this would give the UK the 6th longest expressway length in the world, ahead of France!

It would be nice, but I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

(Expressway in this context means Motorway or Motorway-like road. So basically fully grade-separated dual carriageways, that don't have private property accesses or other substandard features. Hard shoulders and traffic restrictions a nice to have, but not essential. An expressway doesn't have to prohibit non-motorised traffic, but a good way to think of it is as a road that could prohibit non-motorised traffic.)

For reference, I am referring to the current as of now Wikipedia page, last edited 01:27, 20 May.
Permalink to this version of the page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1024087277

The source given for this figure is a government document, Road Lengths in Great Britain 2019:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... n-2019.pdf

This document mentions that GB has 2300 miles of Motorway, plus 29500 miles of A-road, of which 18% is Trunk.
I think whoever edited the Wiki page did ((29500 * 0.18) + 2300) to get 7610 miles...
Which converted to km actually gives 12247 km, but it's close enough that I think that's what happened.

Of course the problem is that "Trunk" doesn't mean expressway, in fact it does not refer to the quality of the road at all, a Trunk road could even be a single-carriageway.

This wiki page at some point in the past used to just show the length of Motorway in the UK, but was at some point edited. Unfortunately, it's giving an inaccurate picture.

So I guess, the question is, should we do something about this?
And if so, what should the value be? Just the motorway length of 3700 km or so?
This would put us in 17th place, ahead of Turkey but behind Poland.

Or some other figure?
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Bryn666 »

Wikipedia isn't particularly reliable for UK roads.

SABRE has its own wiki which should be a starting point of reference for people: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/

Anyone on here can edit it.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

JRN wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 21:42 but I believe the figure given for the UK is wrong:
Fix it then.

You do know what Wikipedia is, right?
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by ajuk »

Are we really that close to Germany?
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Having a cuppa »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 00:05
JRN wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 21:42 but I believe the figure given for the UK is wrong:
Fix it then.

You do know what Wikipedia is, right?
I don't think he/she would be able to edit it, because for important details, all text must be cited from certain sources and working out the figure yourself would be considered "original research" and therefore wouldn't be acceptable, according to Wikipedia guidelines.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by jervi »

Having a cuppa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 02:50 I don't think he/she would be able to edit it, because for important details, all text must be cited from certain sources and working out the figure yourself would be considered "original research" and therefore wouldn't be acceptable, according to Wikipedia guidelines.
Way around that is to make a wiki page on the sabre wiki showing the total amount of "expressway" roads, and then use that as the source on Wikipedia.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Steven »

jervi wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 06:43
Having a cuppa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 02:50 I don't think he/she would be able to edit it, because for important details, all text must be cited from certain sources and working out the figure yourself would be considered "original research" and therefore wouldn't be acceptable, according to Wikipedia guidelines.
Way around that is to make a wiki page on the sabre wiki showing the total amount of "expressway" roads, and then use that as the source on Wikipedia.
But why bother with Wikipedia at all? We all know it's got plenty of incorrect rubbish on it and isn't worth the 1s and 0s it's written with...

And you know someone will just come along and claim your meticulous research is "unreliable" or whatever, and remove all the links but steal all the hard work anyway to claim as their own, then put their own twist on it to claim it how they want and therefore becomes incorrect again. Not that that happens regularly or anything.

Instead, why don't you improve ours here, which is actually accurate?
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Chris5156 »

JRN wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 21:42So I guess, the question is, should we do something about this?
The short answer is no, because there is no "we" - SABRE doesn't contribute to Wikipedia as a body - but if you'd like to then go ahead!

I think you're right that the 12,000km figure is wrong and you're also right about how it was calculated. If you look on the talk page for that article you'll see people pointing out that the figures for many other countries are also wrong, and presumably also derived by similarly wayward methods.

The DfT doesn't appear to gather or collate statistics for expressways in the way that this table is expecting, so there is no simple answer. I suspect that, to correct it, you'd need to find some other published source of information where the length of controlled access road in the UK had been calculated.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by c2R »

There's also the fact that lots of high quality dual carriageways were detrunked and are now in the hands of local authorities, and also how far do you go in terms of determining what is included and what is excluded - does the Whitney bypass count anymore, with its new roundabout, for example?

As for Wikipedia itself, I'm inclined to agree with Steven - I've had demonstrably correct facts reverted for lack of sourcing, being replaced by something that is out of date or, at worse, factually inaccurate because it was published in a newspaper column once...
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by AndrewGPaul »

Steven wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 07:59
But why bother with Wikipedia at all? We all know it's got plenty of incorrect rubbish on it and isn't worth the 1s and 0s it's written with...


Instead, why don't you improve ours here, which is actually accurate?

Because when I search for “total length of Uk roads”,Wikipedia is at the top, while SABRE doesn’t make the first page.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Steven »

AndrewGPaul wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:25 Because when I search for “total length of Uk roads”,Wikipedia is at the top, while SABRE doesn’t make the first page.
Wikipedia is always at the top. The Google algorithms are built that way.

That's an argument for never doing anything better...
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Micro The Maniac »

jervi wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 06:43 Way around that is to make a wiki page on the sabre wiki showing the total amount of "expressway" roads
This big seems like a good idea, whatever the target use.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Bryn666 »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 16:01
jervi wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 06:43 Way around that is to make a wiki page on the sabre wiki showing the total amount of "expressway" roads
This big seems like a good idea, whatever the target use.
Needs an accepted definition though... which is quite a problem, as I wouldn't call a 70 limit D2 with at-grade pedestrian crossings an expressway - so that rules out roads like the A56 at Haslingden.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by Glenn A »

Wikipedia stated that the A69 by passed Heddon on the Wall in 1971, it didn't occur until 1976, and I can certainly remember using the A69 through the village before 1976.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by JRN »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 00:05
JRN wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 21:42 but I believe the figure given for the UK is wrong:
Fix it then.

You do know what Wikipedia is, right?
Sure, I could update it, but like I say (and as others have said), it's a little difficult to know what to update it to.
I feel like including only the Motorway length would not show the UK in the best light, but the current figure is giving an unreasonably rosy picture.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by JRN »

AndrewGPaul wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:25
Steven wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 07:59
But why bother with Wikipedia at all? We all know it's got plenty of incorrect rubbish on it and isn't worth the 1s and 0s it's written with...


Instead, why don't you improve ours here, which is actually accurate?

Because when I search for “total length of Uk roads”,Wikipedia is at the top, while SABRE doesn’t make the first page.
Yes. Thanks to everyone who rightly pointed out that the SABRE wiki ought to be the first port of call, but this was my concern too - that the world sees Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is what people will use to compare countries.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by JRN »

ajuk wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 02:06 Are we really that close to Germany?
No the figure given in Wikipedia is inaccurate and based on a confusion between Trunk roads (describes importance / funding source) and Expressways (describes quality).
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by JRN »

Chris5156 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 09:24
JRN wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 21:42So I guess, the question is, should we do something about this?
The short answer is no, because there is no "we" - SABRE doesn't contribute to Wikipedia as a body - but if you'd like to then go ahead!

I think you're right that the 12,000km figure is wrong and you're also right about how it was calculated. If you look on the talk page for that article you'll see people pointing out that the figures for many other countries are also wrong, and presumably also derived by similarly wayward methods.

The DfT doesn't appear to gather or collate statistics for expressways in the way that this table is expecting, so there is no simple answer. I suspect that, to correct it, you'd need to find some other published source of information where the length of controlled access road in the UK had been calculated.

Yeah, some of the figures for other countries are definitely also wrong. The figure for France is Autoroute only, doesn't include the "voie express" upgraded Routes Nationales.
On the other side of the coin, I'm doubtful that countries like Brazil really have the stated length.

Like you say it seems like there isn't really an official answer for this one UK, unfortunately. I will look into it myself.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by JRN »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 16:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 16:01
jervi wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 06:43 Way around that is to make a wiki page on the sabre wiki showing the total amount of "expressway" roads
This big seems like a good idea, whatever the target use.
Needs an accepted definition though... which is quite a problem, as I wouldn't call a 70 limit D2 with at-grade pedestrian crossings an expressway - so that rules out roads like the A56 at Haslingden.
Yes this is tough Especially in the UK. With no law generally prohibiting pedestrians, cyclists etc. from fast roads, I guess any kind of pedestrian access, whether it's a crossing or an adjacent footway means it would be pretty difficult to prohibit them.
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Re: Wikipedia has incorrect figure for UK Expressway length

Post by c2R »

JRN wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 21:41
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 16:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 16:01

This big seems like a good idea, whatever the target use.
Needs an accepted definition though... which is quite a problem, as I wouldn't call a 70 limit D2 with at-grade pedestrian crossings an expressway - so that rules out roads like the A56 at Haslingden.
Yes this is tough Especially in the UK. With no law generally prohibiting pedestrians, cyclists etc. from fast roads, I guess any kind of pedestrian access, whether it's a crossing or an adjacent footway means it would be pretty difficult to prohibit them.
I'm sure though that Spanish autovias are included in their length, despite some of these in more remote areas permitting cyclists.
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