The future for urban speed limits

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Having a cuppa
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Having a cuppa »

JRN wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 14:00
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:02
JRN wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 08:24We must be just about the only country in the world to use MPH in only 10 MPH increments.
Well, how many countries are still using mph at all? It's not such an issue where km/h are in use, as 10km/h is a smaller increment.
Sorry what I meant was, other countries either use 10 km/h (~6 mph) increments, whilst the only other major country to use miles, the USA, uses 5 mph increments.
However a few other countries in the world use miles, Belize, Liberia and a few islands in the Carribean and Pacific, not sure if they use 5's though, countries influenced by America might.
Most of the countries using miles per hour in the Pacific are in free association with the United States, which uses miles per hour. Due to the unique relation between these Pacific countries and the US, these countries derive the majority of their laws and road signs from the US. In short, they use 5 mph increments.

As for the Caribbean islands, Anguilla and Monserrat use 10 mph increments, like the motherland. As for the other British overseas territories, they use 5 mph increments, with Bermuda also using both mph and km/h. Other Caribbean countries using mph were apart of the British West Indies, which is why they still use miles per hour and imperial gallons. Most use 5 mph increments due to US roadsigns being cheaper to import and the design norm in the Western Hemisphere. Belize also uses 5 mph increments once again due to US influence.

Aside from the lesson, is there any reason why we can't implement a 25 mph limit?
Last edited by Having a cuppa on Fri Jun 11, 2021 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
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OLD GIT
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by OLD GIT »

Forget the 5or 10 mph increments. What I see so often in the midlands is two adjacent authorities with different ideas on the limit for the same road. Warks last speed round, we had the ludicrous situation where the Councillors (on police advice) were happy with the existing limits, but certain County employees wanted changes.
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ajuk
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by ajuk »

Having a cuppa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 21:57 I'm a layman and not an engineer, but clearly there should be more refined guidelines for speed limits in urban and suburban areas for councils to follow. As other users have mentioned, a lot of decisions are down to 'party politics'. What ever your affiliation is, I think we can all agree such decisions should be based on evidence, which has been accessible, instead of a being left to airheads with a lack of experience regarding road infrastructure.

Categorization of different roads like this could be the basis of a potential solution:

Narrow roads occupied by pedestrians: 5/10 mph

School zones: 15/20 mph

Residential zones: 20 mph, 10 mph stretches to accommodate for blind spots

Roads with at least 1.5 metres of space between opposing lanes and modern pedestrian crossings: 30 mph

(Lower then expressway) Limited access roads with at least 1.5 metres of space between opposing lanes: AT LEAST 45 mph, 30 mph 1/4 mile before junction/intersection
/\ It's ideas like this that reminds me why it's a good thing that UK limits are set by presence of street lights and not by signs telling people they can go *a speed* and why you have other laws should you cause an accident while going too fast even if you weren't exceeding the speed limit such as reckless, careless, dangerous driving and driving without due care and attention.
It puts more expectation and emphasis on drivers adapting their speed according to the conditions rather than driving by numbers.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by JRN »

Having a cuppa wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 00:30
JRN wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 14:00
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:02 Well, how many countries are still using mph at all? It's not such an issue where km/h are in use, as 10km/h is a smaller increment.
Sorry what I meant was, other countries either use 10 km/h (~6 mph) increments, whilst the only other major country to use miles, the USA, uses 5 mph increments.
However a few other countries in the world use miles, Belize, Liberia and a few islands in the Carribean and Pacific, not sure if they use 5's though, countries influenced by America might.
Most of the countries using miles per hour in the Pacific are in free association with the United States, which uses miles per hour. Due to the unique relation between these Pacific countries and the US, these countries derive the majority of their laws and road signs from the US. In short, they use 5 mph increments.

As for the Caribbean islands, Anguilla and Monserrat use 10 mph increments, like the motherland. As for the other British overseas territories, they use 5 mph increments, with Bermuda also using both mph and km/h. Other Caribbean countries using mph were apart of the British West Indies, which is why they still use miles per hour and imperial gallons. Most use 5 mph increments due to US roadsigns being cheaper to import and the design norm in the Western Hemisphere. Belize also uses 5 mph increments once again due to using US influence. Belize also uses 5 mph increments, once again due to US influence.

Aside from the lesson, is there any reason why we can't implement a 25 mph limit?
Interesting - so the Pacific island roadsigns are actually the US white rectangular ones not the international roundel style?

As for speed limits ending in 5 in the UK, I've heard it said it can't be done as UK speedometers aren't required by law to show the 5's. I'm a little sceptical though as Jersey and Guernsey both have speed limits ending in 5's, and I doubt their speedo dials are any different. Even if they are, it's perfectly legal to hop on a car ferry with your UK spec car and go to the Channel Islands.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by FosseWay »

JRN wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:43 As for speed limits ending in 5 in the UK, I've heard it said it can't be done as UK speedometers aren't required by law to show the 5's. I'm a little sceptical though as Jersey and Guernsey both have speed limits ending in 5's, and I doubt their speedo dials are any different. Even if they are, it's perfectly legal to hop on a car ferry with your UK spec car and go to the Channel Islands.
It's perfectly legal to temporarily export your car (to go on holiday etc.) to all sorts of places and not modify it in various ways that are required for vehicles permanently stationed in the countries you're visiting.

My car, in common with virtually all continental European cars, has no mph on the speedo. That doesn't mean I can't drive it in the UK; if I wanted to permanently import it and register it in the UK, I'd have to get it changed, but for visiting, it doesn't matter. The onus is on me to (a) know what a given mph limit is in km/h and (b) stick to it. While this broadly* isn't true of the UK, there are jurisdictions where speed limits apply to vehicles that are not legally required to have speedometers - the same applies, as the onus is on the user to obey the law. Whether they do that by fitting a speedo, using their fitness watch or gaining an accurate idea of how fast they're going from things like pedal power, wind drag and vibration (which is easier on a bike than in a car), is up to them.

* I say "broadly" because all motor vehicles must obey posted speed limits but a very small minority, such as veteran cars built before speedometers were required, legally do not have speedos.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Chris5156 »

JRN wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:43As for speed limits ending in 5 in the UK, I've heard it said it can't be done as UK speedometers aren't required by law to show the 5's. I'm a little sceptical though as Jersey and Guernsey both have speed limits ending in 5's, and I doubt their speedo dials are any different. Even if they are, it's perfectly legal to hop on a car ferry with your UK spec car and go to the Channel Islands.
It only “can’t be done” because that was the reason the UK’s legislators decided not to permit it. Legislative assemblies in other territories may well look at the same facts and reach a different conclusion - as Jersey and Guernsey did!
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:28
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:43
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 19:3020 mph is just more pleasant as a non-motorised user and/or resident - if it's obeyed, that is.
In fairness, that's a subjective view.
You are a confident, able bodied man. If you were an 87 year old woman with poor mobility, vehicles doing 30 past you would be a lot more intimidating. Or if you were a small child with no perception of speed it would be a lot more intimidating.

This is called "empathy". Just because something doesn't bother you doesn't mean it doesn't bother anybody else.
And just because something may be right for you does not mean it is right for everyone. I agree with Chris, it absolutely is subjective.

Though it is not a major problem, usually, I do have some mobility issues amongst other things. But I find 20 mph traffic more difficult to judge so it makes crossing roads a lot more difficult as I cannot just wait for traffic to quickly pass. It also means you end up with constant traffic that never clears rather than spurts of traffic. Which no only makes crossing more difficult where there are no provided crossings but also makes for a more unpleasant environment.

And because of said issues I have not ridden my bicycle for a while, but 20 mph limits on busier roads makes me feel unsafe because I want other vehicles to get out of the way rather than sit behind me so they make me less likely to cycle. They even make using the bus, the main way I get about town, less attractive by slowing them down.

Empathy requires seeing things for other perspectives, not just assuming how hypothetical people may feel. And as someone who is considered to have a few relevant disabilities I can say as a real person that, when not operating a motor vehicle, I find some of the 20 mph limits now being applied to be intimidating.

(And not that it is relevant to the point, but as a motorist I am a vulnerable road user, and I feel less safe on roads where they are badly applied too.)
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by ajuk »

When I wrote to my MP about speed limits and how they're being set and my concerns about non-uniformity making it socially acceptable to ignore them etc, I mentioned the lack of having speed limits in 5mph increments as an issue especially a low speeds.
There response was they're they're technically allowed but you'd need permission from the secretary of state for transport for doing it.
A lot of consultations for 20mph schemes you'll find councils have to answer calls for using 25mph limits normally in their FAQ.
I don't think 25mph limits would be bad idea on some roads with 85th percentile speeds below 27mph. Such busy A roads that are lined with shops.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

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In Bristol there is the problem of non-uniformity with it's 20 limits, for the most part main roads were kept 30, however they seem to have judge roads based on their importance rather than engineering standards, that means you have roads with 20 limits that are of a higher standard and modern roads some of which were designed for 30 limits and have not been altered, then there are other roads in the city that remain 30 but are clearly of a lower standard, there's also journeys you can do where the limit can shift several times for seemingly no reason, and a few places where the limit goes 20 to 30 where you might expect it to go from 30 to 20, such as here. These are all things that push up driver apathy towards speed limits.

I've even had 20mph limit campaigners I've debated and while we've not agreed overall, they have agreed with me that including many higher standard roads isn't helpful. One road in Bristol had a non-compliance rate of 97% when the local press did a hidden camera survey, but that was just a higher standard urban road Pennywell Road in Bristol.

Now Wales have stared to do things like this, I thought that was the worst I've ever seen, then I saw this seemed under posted when it was 30, I can only think that this isn't down to people thinking it through, someone has just decided to make Taff's Well a 20 limit and didn't bother to even consider differing road standards.

There's no point giving me an appeal to motive response, I don't drive down these roads very often, the reason why I feel strongly about doing this is because I genuinely think it's dangerous.
It's getting to the level of supermarket car park speed limits where instead of making any attempt to have the limit make sense, it's just set it really really low and people who speed will only go X amount over the posted limit.
I know that's a thing, my nan told me it's true.

At this level it's got to the point where the posted speed limit is so divorced from what most drivers would feel comfortable driving down that road they might as well not have a posted speed limit. I think this is a product of not only that councils can set speed limits that they like, but also there can be no-consequence if it causes an increase in deaths or accidents by being set against the guidelines.
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