The future for urban speed limits

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pjr10th
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The future for urban speed limits

Post by pjr10th »

The policies for urban speed limits have clearly changed a lot recently, with 20mph becoming common not only in the UK, but across Europe and not only on traffic calmed estates, but on other roads as well.

However, it seems we've ended up with a rather British hotchpotch of speed limits in urban areas, with different authorities rather doing their own thing, leading to bizarre changes at authority borders (including within council areas where roads are owned by different orgs.) and some councils using 20mph limits on main roads, while some don't even use them on residential roads.

We also seem to have at least three different types of 20 limit: the 20 zone, the 20 limit and the advisory limit (oft found in Scotland with the teal speed limit signs). It rather seems to depend on the roads authority which is used now as well, with some using limits for residential estates, and some using zones. That's not even mentioning part-time speed limits around schools, which seem to vary in implementation.

The Welsh Government are planning on changing the 'default 30' to a 'default 20' rule, which means that the often blurry Welsh border will also incur a change in the default speed limit in street-lit zones, and will of course discourage councils from having 30 limits, since they will need to put up repeater signs.

So what do you think needs to be done to sort out this mess? Should the government come up with a standardised 20mph policy (and what would that be)? Should councils be left to their own devices? Should we continue with the current mix of zones, limits and part time limits, or come up with a new simpler system (and, again, what should that be)? How should school zones be handled, an advisory limit or an enforceable limit? Should the Welsh plan of default 20s be extended to the whole of the UK as well? Is the current system of determining speed limits with street lighting outdated altogether - should it be replaced with a more European style system, and how would that be implemented, in your view? I think it will be interesting to hear people's opinions on this (sorry if this is a repost of an earlier post - I did a search and nothing came up :) ).
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by fras »

I think the rot set in under the stewardship of Patrick McLoughlin, who seems to have been the archetypal "amiable idiot" we get so often in the post of Transport Minister. It was under his watch that speed limit setting was handed down to coun cils, and the notorious guidance on setting speed limits was published. This abolished the 80 percentile measure used previously.
I would think he stands equal to Tom Fraser, who was obviously given the post for loyal service to the Labour Party by Harold Wilson, when he won the election in 1964. Others in this Hall of Fame, (IMHO) are
Fred Mulley Labour(who's he !)
John Peyton Cons (also who's he ?)
and many others who no doubt looked on it as being sent to be a Power Station Manager in Siberia
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Bryn666
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Bryn666 »

The current system is shambolic - it would be easier to fix speed limits in this country by embarking down the road of metrication and starting over than to try and make sense of the inter-authority disparities everywhere.

And as I've said elsewhere I'd have a default 40km/h limit in urban areas then, this is a reasonable halfway house between 30mph and 20mph, and would be a lot easier to enforce than working out whether you're on a classified road or not or whatever other dubious "look at our logical setting" plans overpaid and under-skilled designers and their political masters come up with.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Chris5156 »

pjr10th wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 17:36So what do you think needs to be done to sort out this mess? Should the government come up with a standardised 20mph policy (and what would that be)?
There already is a standardised policy - DfT Circular 01/2006 recommends that 20mph is used in town centres, residential areas and near schools. You can interpret that to cover just about all urban areas if you wish. 30 is still recommended to be the "standard limit in built-up areas with development on both sides of the road" and "the norm in villages".

What you might want to see is a more prescriptive policy, that says roads carrying a certain volume of traffic, or a certain width, or some other measure should be 30 rather than 20. I'm not sure how you would define that in practice, which is probably why the policy itself is so woolly.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by trickstat »

fras wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 18:18 I think the rot set in under the stewardship of Patrick McLoughlin, who seems to have been the archetypal "amiable idiot" we get so often in the post of Transport Minister. It was under his watch that speed limit setting was handed down to coun cils, and the notorious guidance on setting speed limits was published. This abolished the 80 percentile measure used previously.
I would think he stands equal to Tom Fraser, who was obviously given the post for loyal service to the Labour Party by Harold Wilson, when he won the election in 1964. Others in this Hall of Fame, (IMHO) are
Fred Mulley Labour(who's he !)
John Peyton Cons (also who's he ?)
and many others who no doubt looked on it as being sent to be a Power Station Manager in Siberia
IIRC Fred Mulley was mainly notable for rather publicly falling asleep at the Queen's Jubilee Review of the Royal Air Force in 1977, which was not the quietest occasion.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by jervi »

My view on it, is that 30 is okay as the default speed limit in urban areas. Roads that should be driven a slower speeds should be designed in a way to make drivers naturally drive at those lower speeds, rather than just putting up signs and expecting people to drive slower.
I don't hear people crying out that NSL should be 40mph because most rural roads (S1/S1.5) are not suitable for faster traffic, and then have WS2s then signed at 60, so why should that logic be applied to urban roads?
20 limits compliance is extremely low in most places, it only works if cameras are put in or the road layout changed to make drivers slow down.
Through town centres and heavily pedestrianised areas I drive at no faster than 20mph anyway, even if the speed limit is 30.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 18:28 The current system is shambolic - it would be easier to fix speed limits in this country by embarking down the road of metrication and starting over than to try and make sense of the inter-authority disparities everywhere.

And as I've said elsewhere I'd have a default 40km/h limit in urban areas then, this is a reasonable halfway house between 30mph and 20mph, and would be a lot easier to enforce than working out whether you're on a classified road or not or whatever other dubious "look at our logical setting" plans overpaid and under-skilled designers and their political masters come up with.
Almost exactly halfway according to my calculations, being 25mph give or take.
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Having a cuppa
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Having a cuppa »

I'm a layman and not an engineer, but clearly there should be more refined guidelines for speed limits in urban and suburban areas for councils to follow. As other users have mentioned, a lot of decisions are down to 'party politics'. What ever your affiliation is, I think we can all agree such decisions should be based on evidence, which has been accessible, instead of a being left to airheads with a lack of experience regarding road infrastructure.

Categorization of different roads like this could be the basis of a potential solution:

Narrow roads occupied by pedestrians: 5/10 mph

School zones: 15/20 mph

Residential zones: 20 mph, 10 mph stretches to accommodate for blind spots

Roads with at least 1.5 metres of space between opposing lanes and modern pedestrian crossings: 30 mph

(Lower then expressway) Limited access roads with at least 1.5 metres of space between opposing lanes: AT LEAST 45 mph, 30 mph 1/4 mile before junction/intersection
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Alderpoint »

Having a cuppa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 21:57 I'm a layman and not an engineer, but clearly there should be more refined guidelines for speed limits in urban and suburban areas for councils to follow. As other users have mentioned, a lot of decisions are down to 'party politics'. What ever your affiliation is, I think we can all agree such decisions should be based on evidence, which has been accessible, instead of a being left to airheads with a lack of experience regarding road infrastructure.

Categorization of different roads like this could be the basis of a potential solution:

Narrow roads occupied by pedestrians: 5/10 mph

School zones: 15/20 mph

Residential zones: 20 mph, 10 mph stretches to accommodate for blind spots

Roads with at least 1.5 metres of space between opposing lanes and modern pedestrian crossings: 30 mph

(Lower then expressway) Limited access roads with at least 1.5 metres of space between opposing lanes: AT LEAST 45 mph, 30 mph 1/4 mile before junction/intersection
Way too complicated to implement. Way too complicated for drivers to know what the limit is - would need distracting repeaters everywhere. Way too complicated for police to enforce.
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Having a cuppa
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Having a cuppa »

Alderpoint wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 23:17
Way too complicated to implement. Way too complicated for drivers to know what the limit is - would need distracting repeaters everywhere. Way too complicated for police to enforce.
Road users wouldn't necessarily have to know about the classifications, they would just have to obey the speed limit. The arbitrary classifications I made are based on the surrounding environmental factors. Similarly to C, D, and U roads, such a classification scheme would only be used by local authorities so they can make informed decisions about speed limits, instead of putting 20 mph limits everywhere. Bare in mind, it is more of a concept than a solution.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by FosseWay »

IMV we should look at what the road is primarily used for. A through route, by which I mean a road that people drive along without having any particular connection to the properties on either side, which is intended to funnel through traffic away from narrower residential streets, should have as its main focus the people using the road for that purpose (not necessarily only motorists, I should add). People may well live there as well, but if you choose to live on a through route in a city, you accept that that means there will be some traffic noise and that you can't walk straight out of your door into the road without looking.

Conversely, residential roads where the only valid reason to drive there is because you live there or have business with someone who does, should be managed with the residents in mind. Lower speed limits, traffic calming and restricted access not only make it more pleasant for the residents but also discourage people from driving there who don't need to. The quid pro quo of that last bit, though, is that the driver who is successfully discouraged from driving through the residential area should not then be faced with a load of humps and 20 limits on the through route - it makes it more attractive to cut through the housing again.

Overall I think we are way too obsessed with speed, anyway. This is demonstrated by people wanting increments of 10 km/h in hypothetical metrication projects, and by suggestions where speed limits change every 100 yards. No permanent speed limit can always and unambiguously reflect what is a safe speed at any given time - that depends on too many dynamic factors such as who else is there, what the weather's like, what visibility is like (dark? parked vehicles?), what kind of vehicle you're driving, and so on. Speed limits can only ever be a guide to what is probably a reasonable speed in most contexts. Also, if you're going to base your entire urban roads planning on speed limits and not much else, you're going to need one heck of a lot of enforcement, and I don't see that happening. There are more intelligent ways of making residential roads nicer places to live and be.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Barkstar »

jervi wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 20:12 My view on it, is that 30 is okay as the default speed limit in urban areas. Roads that should be driven a slower speeds should be designed in a way to make drivers naturally drive at those lower speeds, rather than just putting up signs and expecting people to drive slower.
I'd agree with this generally though it would probably just mean cash strapped local authorities putting even more sleeping policemen in. It can be done well, one of the nicer bits of suburbia near here had a scheme put in 20 or so years ago and it even manages to look okay. Even with a decent budget achieving something similar on the streets of terraced house around me would be difficult.

I wouldn't have an issue with more now way streets and slightly convoluted routing to remove rat runs, who almost inevitably push the limits. It also requires fairly robust parking restriction enforcement if it's to work. But a scheme of this nature this was implemented in south Manchester during lockdown and the locals soon found a JCB and had the huge planters shifted, or drove on the pavement to go round them.

On the whole naturally getting drivers to slow due to the environment has to be way better that just sticking up more red bordered roundels.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by B1040 »

The 30mph default is widely known, and I think that most drivers try to more or less respect it.
20mph is harder to drive at and often feels like more of an imposition on main roads.

There is a pressure group in Cambridge pressing for wider 20 limits.
https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... l-9199854/

A focus purely on speed can miss the point. A village near me has a speedwatch group that regularly posts in the local paper.
They never say thank you to the >80% who respect the limit.
They never acknowledge 0 accidents (afaik)
They never notice that the road they patrol has houses only on one side of the road and fields on most of the other side, no pedestrians cross the road in normal circumstances. I do accept that people pull out of driveways.
They do count the number of people exceeding the speed limit on this fairly safe road with good sightlines.

Round here most design features for reducing speed are sleeping policemen and chicanes (along with potholes and parked vehicles).
How are pollution and fuel consumption in ICE vehicles at 20 and 30mph? My gut feeling is that both are probably worse at 20, but I don't know where the data is.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by FosseWay »

Barkstar wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 09:04 I wouldn't have an issue with more now way streets and slightly convoluted routing to remove rat runs, who almost inevitably push the limits. It also requires fairly robust parking restriction enforcement if it's to work. But a scheme of this nature this was implemented in south Manchester during lockdown and the locals soon found a JCB and had the huge planters shifted, or drove on the pavement to go round them.
I'm figuring if people are going to those lengths to move planters etc. they are locals, and not rat-runners. Up to a point, if the locals want through traffic in their neighbourhood then that's their choice (though they can't then come bleating about traffic noise or fumes). I suspect that some of the vitriol aimed at LTNs stems from decisions to implement them against the wishes of the people who live there, which is kind of asking for resistance in some form (though I'm not condoning vandalism, of course).

If anything, allowing *more* parking on residential streets, providing it doesn't cause problems for fire engines and bin lorries, helps to keep speeds down. It's free traffic calming.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by FosseWay »

B1040 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:01 The 30mph default is widely known, and I think that most drivers try to more or less respect it.
20mph is harder to drive at and often feels like more of an imposition on main roads.

There is a pressure group in Cambridge pressing for wider 20 limits.
https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... l-9199854/

A focus purely on speed can miss the point. A village near me has a speedwatch group that regularly posts in the local paper.
They never say thank you to the >80% who respect the limit.
They never acknowledge 0 accidents (afaik)
They never notice that the road they patrol has houses only on one side of the road and fields on most of the other side, no pedestrians cross the road in normal circumstances. I do accept that people pull out of driveways.
They do count the number of people exceeding the speed limit on this fairly safe road with good sightlines.

Round here most design features for reducing speed are sleeping policemen and chicanes (along with potholes and parked vehicles).
How are pollution and fuel consumption in ICE vehicles at 20 and 30mph? My gut feeling is that both are probably worse at 20, but I don't know where the data is.
Well, yes, that is symptomatic of focusing on speed as an end in itself, rather than looking at what problems and dangers exist on a given road and seeing what can be done to deal with them. Getting people to reduce their speed will often be part of that, since speed is an obvious factor in accident likelihood and severity, but it's unlikely to be the only thing that can be done. Also it's worth pointing out that, especially at urban speeds, reducing speeds per se is negative: it takes people longer to get where they're going (including on the bus) and increases emissions (ditto), and encourages slow, close overtakes of cyclists. Those considerations are outweighed by the need to deal with bad accident rates, sure, but you need to be sure that the measure you're taking actually has that effect.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Helvellyn »

Having a cuppa wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 04:56
Alderpoint wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 23:17
Way too complicated to implement. Way too complicated for drivers to know what the limit is - would need distracting repeaters everywhere. Way too complicated for police to enforce.
Road users wouldn't necessarily have to know about the classifications, they would just have to obey the speed limit. The arbitrary classifications I made are based on the surrounding environmental factors. Similarly to C, D, and U roads, such a classification scheme would only be used by local authorities so they can make informed decisions about speed limits, instead of putting 20 mph limits everywhere. Bare in mind, it is more of a concept than a solution.
For road users to have respect for limits they need to not keep changing, seemingly at random, and be generally appropriate. Any deviations from that very definitely need to be in response to a specific problem, which in this case means too much inappropriate speed that's still within the limit (no point in reducing a limit to deal with people who are completely ignoring the existing one).

Should be 30 everywhere built up, with only a few exceptions where it's really needed.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Barkstar »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:08
Barkstar wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 09:04 I wouldn't have an issue with more now way streets and slightly convoluted routing to remove rat runs, who almost inevitably push the limits. It also requires fairly robust parking restriction enforcement if it's to work. But a scheme of this nature this was implemented in south Manchester during lockdown and the locals soon found a JCB and had the huge planters shifted, or drove on the pavement to go round them.
I'm figuring if people are going to those lengths to move planters etc. they are locals, and not rat-runners. Up to a point, if the locals want through traffic in their neighbourhood then that's their choice (though they can't then come bleating about traffic noise or fumes). I suspect that some of the vitriol aimed at LTNs stems from decisions to implement them against the wishes of the people who live there, which is kind of asking for resistance in some form (though I'm not condoning vandalism, of course).

If anything, allowing *more* parking on residential streets, providing it doesn't cause problems for fire engines and bin lorries, helps to keep speeds down. It's free traffic calming.
In that case it would have been locals - except the pavement drivers maybe. Unfortunately a lot of car drivers are lazy and not happy to have to drive a few hundred yards more even if it makes their local environment more pleasant. There are couple of roads near here, one with a no right turn out and one with a no left turn in that are ignored on a daily basis because it would involve a minute more driving.

In principal I agree about the parking slowing things down but if you implemented a scheme with one way circulation and sensible traffic calming it doesn't take much selfish parking to begin to make it unworkable. Local to me the pavement has been extended to slow traffic at a junction busy with pedestrians going to the corner shop and with cars parked all over it is a real pinch point. The road isn't used as a rat run per se but is busy with locals and, being lined with terrace houses, is parked both sides. Chaos often ensues and I avoid driving that way.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 18:28 And as I've said elsewhere I'd have a default 40km/h limit in urban areas then, this is a reasonable halfway house between 30mph and 20mph, and would be a lot easier to enforce than working out whether you're on a classified road or not or whatever other dubious "look at our logical setting" plans overpaid and under-skilled designers and their political masters come up with.
A roads in urban areas need to be considered separately from B or C roads, which in turn should be considered separately from U (and similar "unclassified" roads) - if determination is such a problem then a plate with the road number should be affixed under the limit sign.

I can fully sympathise with urban residential roads being 20mph... but through-roads and distributor-roads should not be so blanketed.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by Micro The Maniac »

B1040 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:01 They do count the number of people exceeding the speed limit on this fairly safe road with good sightlines.
And here is the nub - compliance is usually very good where drivers understand the limit.

Unnecessarily, arbitrary, lower limits breeds disrespect for other lower limits.

Every speed limit sign should have a plate explaining the limit - and "Party Politics" should have no place.
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Re: The future for urban speed limits

Post by JRN »

Part of the problem is that a weird myth has developed amongst urbanist types that the default speed limit in European cities has become 30 km/h (18.5 mph).
As far as I can tell this is not the case and the default limit remains 50 km/h (31 mph) almost everywhere, though 30 km/h and sometimes 40 km/h zones are more widely used in some places than others.
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