Moving a borough / district boundary

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RichardA626
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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As part of my current job I have to save documents using the first line of the address.

When it's a common one I'll add the first bit of the postcode to make sure there isn't any confusion.
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jgharston
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by jgharston »

Piatkow wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:47 It always annoys me when online forms force me to enter a county name as part of my postal address.
And, living in Yorkshire, there is a list of every region *except* Yorkshire. And the form refuses to continue until you select one.

I. Do. Not. Live. In. The. North-East.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Postal address and counties: I'm pleased counties are no longer needed as long as you've got the right post code. It removes anomalies that used to annoy me like the villages of Everton and Beckingham in Nottinghamshire. Both villages' postal town is Doncaster, so that used to require South Yorkshire in the full postal address, but they're both in Nottinghamshire.

There used to be a small piece of Nottinghamshire to the east of the B1190 a couple of miles south of the A57 near Saxilby. This was the case about 30 years ago, but some time since then the area has been transferred to Lincolnshire. I'm not sure of the district councils involved.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by owen b »

Luton's boundary is mostly very logical and close to the edge of the urban and industrial areas, except for a chunk of the Bushmead housing estate which was built over 30 years ago and is in Central Beds. I'm surprised this has never been tidied up.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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owen b wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 21:02 Luton's boundary is mostly very logical and close to the edge of the urban and industrial areas, except for a chunk of the Bushmead housing estate which was built over 30 years ago and is in Central Beds. I'm surprised this has never been tidied up.
The problem with urban unitaries like Luton though is that they literally are developed right up to the city boundary, without really an understanding that the sphere of influence is much larger - there will be children attending schools, people working and shopping in the area from outside, visiting the hospital and using other amenities that are in Luton as well as using public transport from further afield to get to it - and the larger the urban area, the further its influence on the surrounding areas will spread... However, those people don't have any say in the electoral makeup of their nearest town, and are significantly disenfranchised as a result.

Altering the boundaries to take this into account would also put a stop to neighbouring authorities using up their house allocations by building up against someone elses town without providing any amenity...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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c2R wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 21:52
owen b wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 21:02 Luton's boundary is mostly very logical and close to the edge of the urban and industrial areas, except for a chunk of the Bushmead housing estate which was built over 30 years ago and is in Central Beds. I'm surprised this has never been tidied up.
The problem with urban unitaries like Luton though is that they literally are developed right up to the city boundary, without really an understanding that the sphere of influence is much larger - there will be children attending schools, people working and shopping in the area from outside, visiting the hospital and using other amenities that are in Luton as well as using public transport from further afield to get to it - and the larger the urban area, the further its influence on the surrounding areas will spread... However, those people don't have any say in the electoral makeup of their nearest town, and are significantly disenfranchised as a result.

Altering the boundaries to take this into account would also put a stop to neighbouring authorities using up their house allocations by building up against someone elses town without providing any amenity...
Exactly, it works both ways. People outside the urban unitary boundary don't get much say over what goes on inside it, conversely authorities outside the boundary put their development right up against the boundary, further adding to congestion, pressure on public services and reducing convenient access to green space for those on the urban unitary side. Luton is particularly plagued with this problem, with Central Beds proposals on the northern edge and the dreadful A6 - M1 link road proposal, and Hertfordshire housing proposals on the east side.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Telstarbox wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 22:47 The specific situation I'm thinking of is some undeveloped land which is currently at the extreme edge of one district, but it's allocated for development and would then sit more logically with the settlements in the neighbouring district.
We have such a beastie at the moment... 270 houses going on a greenfield site, tight up against the borough/district boundary. The neighbouring borough objected on the grounds that the development has no provision for anything other than houses...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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owen b wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 22:18
Exactly, it works both ways. People outside the urban unitary boundary don't get much say over what goes on inside it, conversely authorities outside the boundary put their development right up against the boundary, further adding to congestion, pressure on public services and reducing convenient access to green space for those on the urban unitary side. Luton is particularly plagued with this problem, with Central Beds proposals on the northern edge and the dreadful A6 - M1 link road proposal, and Hertfordshire housing proposals on the east side.
This precisely why I believe that when it comes to housing and transport infrastructure we should be planning at a regional level rather than at the urban unitary authority. We have a horrible mix at the moment. North Yorkshire County Council does a reasonably good job with its highways but it all becomes nonsensical when you hit the Teesside conurbation and find it fragmented between multiple unitary authorities. Stockton have been pretty good at providing new roads for settlements such as Ingleby Barwick but Middlesbrough and Redcar are allowing more ribbon development along already overloaded roads.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Yes, I've never understood why they wanted the unitaries that the Tyne Tees region was split into to be quite so small... Some of them have no possibility of being sustainable in the long run without serious levels of funding coming from above, as there's no way that council tax revenues and business rates can possibly cover the range of services that need to be provided in their local area - particularly in those with higher than average levels of deprivation, meaning lower council tax revenues are brought in, and lower business rates are achievable, but spending to support the population needs to be higher.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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owen b wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 22:18
Exactly, it works both ways. People outside the urban unitary boundary don't get much say over what goes on inside it, conversely authorities outside the boundary put their development right up against the boundary, further adding to congestion, pressure on public services and reducing convenient access to green space for those on the urban unitary side. Luton is particularly plagued with this problem, with Central Beds proposals on the northern edge and the dreadful A6 - M1 link road proposal, and Hertfordshire housing proposals on the east side.
However, people outside the boundary are quite happy being there as generally the headline rate of council tax is lower as the "commuter belt" authority doesn't need to concern itself with supporting public services so much - for example, most "commuter belt" authorities have fewer and smaller libraries, and have lower care bills to deal with.
KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 09:42
owen b wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 22:18
Exactly, it works both ways. People outside the urban unitary boundary don't get much say over what goes on inside it, conversely authorities outside the boundary put their development right up against the boundary, further adding to congestion, pressure on public services and reducing convenient access to green space for those on the urban unitary side. Luton is particularly plagued with this problem, with Central Beds proposals on the northern edge and the dreadful A6 - M1 link road proposal, and Hertfordshire housing proposals on the east side.
This precisely why I believe that when it comes to housing and transport infrastructure we should be planning at a regional level rather than at the urban unitary authority. We have a horrible mix at the moment. North Yorkshire County Council does a reasonably good job with its highways but it all becomes nonsensical when you hit the Teesside conurbation and find it fragmented between multiple unitary authorities. Stockton have been pretty good at providing new roads for settlements such as Ingleby Barwick but Middlesbrough and Redcar are allowing more ribbon development along already overloaded roads.
I disagree with the "regional level" item - we've been there and seen where that one leads, and it's not a good place as everything ends up happing in the regional Core City and everywhere else gets mostly ignored.

However, this is why single tier authorities everywhere based on Travel To Work Areas would be my starting point for reform; with an expectation that authorities would work together for proposals that are within a certain distance of the other.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Steven wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 09:58

I disagree with the "regional level" item - we've been there and seen where that one leads, and it's not a good place as everything ends up happing in the regional Core City and everywhere else gets mostly ignored.

However, this is why single tier authorities everywhere based on Travel To Work Areas would be my starting point for reform; with an expectation that authorities would work together for proposals that are within a certain distance of the other.
It depends on the definition of regional. I am not talking about the North East region but in my case the Tees Valley Combined Authority which when it comes to roads is acting at this level to coordinate the unitary authorities.

Here is the TVCA Roads Implementation plan
https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/wp-content ... n-2020.pdf
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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c2R wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 09:53 Yes, I've never understood why they wanted the unitaries that the Tyne Tees region was split into to be quite so small... Some of them have no possibility of being sustainable in the long run without serious levels of funding coming from above, as there's no way that council tax revenues and business rates can possibly cover the range of services that need to be provided in their local area - particularly in those with higher than average levels of deprivation, meaning lower council tax revenues are brought in, and lower business rates are achievable, but spending to support the population needs to be higher.
When they abolished Cleveland County Council, they took the path of least resistance and made the four existing boroughs into unitary authorities. They really are too small by themselves, and it would probably have made more sense to have North Tees (Stockton + Hartlepool) and South Tees (Middlesbrough + Langbaurgh, as it was then) authorities, but I can already picture the pitchforks wielded in resistance to that. In fact, abolishing the boroughs might have been the better option, making the county the unitary authority. Cleveland isn't that huge, the population is only about 600,000. But again, pitchforks ...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 They really are too small by themselves, and it would probably have made more sense to have North Tees (Stockton + Hartlepool) and South Tees (Middlesbrough + Langbaurgh, as it was then) authorities, but I can already picture the pitchforks wielded in resistance to that.
The TTWAs in the region show that something like this would be an appropriate solution.

They're basically:
* Hartlepool
* Stockton/Billingham/North of the Tees
* Middlesbrough/Guisebrough/Redcar/South of the Tees

whilst nearby Darlington is its own separate TTWA.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Steven wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:53
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 They really are too small by themselves, and it would probably have made more sense to have North Tees (Stockton + Hartlepool) and South Tees (Middlesbrough + Langbaurgh, as it was then) authorities, but I can already picture the pitchforks wielded in resistance to that.
The TTWAs in the region show that something like this would be an appropriate solution.

They're basically:
* Hartlepool
* Stockton/Billingham/North of the Tees
* Middlesbrough/Guisebrough/Redcar/South of the Tees

whilst nearby Darlington is its own separate TTWA.
In reality it was not quite as bad as that. Stockton and Middlesbrough councils have mostly worked closely together even sharing the same bin collection service and recycling centre. As mentioned the TVCA has already stepped into the coordination role not just for Roads but for Rail and Aviation. They took Teesside Airport back into public ownership (under a conservative Mayor) and Darlington Station has got funds for a significant upgrade. Redcar and Cleveland tended to do its own thing but since the ruling labour councils were roundly defeated in the last local elections the councils are now largely controlled by independents who are rather more pragmatic.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Steven wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:53
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 They really are too small by themselves, and it would probably have made more sense to have North Tees (Stockton + Hartlepool) and South Tees (Middlesbrough + Langbaurgh, as it was then) authorities, but I can already picture the pitchforks wielded in resistance to that.
The TTWAs in the region show that something like this would be an appropriate solution.

They're basically:
* Hartlepool
* Stockton/Billingham/North of the Tees
* Middlesbrough/Guisebrough/Redcar/South of the Tees

whilst nearby Darlington is its own separate TTWA.
Guisborough (no e) please. I used to live there. It was expanding at the time, to become a dormitory town for Middlesbrough, also having middle management from. ICI Wilton and British Steel living there. As they have both gone, I wonder what has replaced them.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:30 It depends on the definition of regional. I am not talking about the North East region but in my case the Tees Valley Combined Authority which when it comes to roads is acting at this level to coordinate the unitary authorities.

Here is the TVCA Roads Implementation plan
https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/wp-content ... n-2020.pdf
They should never have abolished Teesside County Borough. That's when the rot set in, a county and four districts fighting amongst themselves, and fossilising the arbitary district boundaries into the current unitaries.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Yep, Reading has suffered from this issue since the 1970s, not corrected by the Banham Report unitarisation of Berkshire in the mid-90s.

Just over a third of the Ding is in West Berks (Calcot/Purley/Beansheaf/most of Tilehurst/Holybrook) and Wokingham (Earley/Lower Earley/North Shinfield/Bulmershe/Woodley) districts.

It causes major issues with funding (as with elsewhere) and planning issues in some areas, someone made a submission to the recent local government boundary review in Reading, asking the Commission to move his house entirely into Reading or West Berks as he would like to put up a structure in his garden and he required planning permission from both authorities as the boundary ran straight through!

They were sadly unable to help him.
Although, the boundaries in the Caversham Park Village area got changed to bring the newly-built 70s housing estate into Reading from South Oxfordshire.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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unrepentantfool wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 17:52 Yep, Reading has suffered from this issue since the 1970s, not corrected by the Banham Report unitarisation of Berkshire in the mid-90s.

Just over a third of the Ding is in West Berks (Calcot/Purley/Beansheaf/most of Tilehurst/Holybrook) and Wokingham (Earley/Lower Earley/North Shinfield/Bulmershe/Woodley) districts.
Even Reading University isn't in Reading!

This is another one where Sykes/Picot can be fixed: link
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by unrepentantfool »

It's half and half, London Road campus is wholly in the Borough and Whiteknights, yes, is split.
That image you posted would clearly be the proper boundary, apart from the weird salient of Sonning/Charvil, which would perfectly well fit in Windsor and Maidenhead, along with Remenham, Wargrave, Ruscombe, Hurst and Twyford.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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I must admit I am enjoying this discussion, as there are some very odd boundary anomalies in the UK. It is interesting to learn about the fact certain councils don't want to see areas of land moved due to business rate income possibly being transferred to another council? Here in Colchester, part of the Severalls Industrial Estate. is in the neighbouring district of Tendring although the estate is geographically part of Colchester. I am not sure what happens when a large building is partly in one council and partly in another?
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