Moving a borough / district boundary

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9696
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by WHBM »

Jim606 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:21 I must admit I am enjoying this discussion, as there are some very odd boundary anomalies in the UK. It is interesting to learn about the fact certain councils don't want to see areas of land moved due to business rate income possibly being transferred to another council
In fact, that is a specific common economic driver, to move (especially commercial organisations, but housing as well) just over the boundary from the city authority to the surrounding rural one, to be still really part of the urban area, but benefit from the rural authority's lower rates, and frequently also the different attitude to their inhabitants, as this is not dominated by having to appeal to (or having been voted in by) an inner city electorate, with very different attitudes to what public funds should be spent on, and indeed raised for in the first place.
User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by jgharston »

unrepentantfool wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 19:11 It's half and half, London Road campus is wholly in the Borough and Whiteknights, yes, is split.
That image you posted would clearly be the proper boundary, apart from the weird salient of Sonning/Charvil, which would perfectly well fit in Windsor and Maidenhead, along with Remenham, Wargrave, Ruscombe, Hurst and Twyford.
I drew the boundary to follow the river all the way as a clear feature that wouldn't get build on top of. To go along something in the direction of the B478 there are clear gaps or features to follow. Sonning is joined to "the rest of" Reading meaning a boundary would slice through something, exactly what we're trying to avoid. And a boundary between Sonning and Charvil would be an arbitary line. You could follow the Charvil parish boundary, but that's exactly the sort of arbitary line following the fences at the bottom of the garden that is exactly the sort of things that is likely to get built across.

Plus the existing Twyford parish boundary follows the river, so you may as well follow it as an existing feature that has already proved that it is suitable to be used as a boundary. Interestingly, most of the parish boundaries in the area have already been re-aligned to follow the motorway.
WHBM wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:49 In fact, that is a specific common economic driver, to move (especially commercial organisations, but housing as well) just over the boundary from the city authority to the surrounding rural one, to be still really part of the urban area, but benefit from the rural authority's lower rates, and frequently also the different attitude to their inhabitants, as this is not dominated by having to appeal to (or having been voted in by) an inner city electorate, with very different attitudes to what public funds should be spent on, and indeed raised for in the first place.
Around our area there's the another effect, people wanting to build in the North York Moors, but not within the planning clutches of the National Park, so they squeeze into all the space in town just outside the National Park boundary filling up all our open spaces with Malvina Reynolds boxes. They then even advertise the properties as "in the beautiful North Yorkshire Moors".
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 When they abolished Cleveland County Council, they took the path of least resistance...
So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
jgharston wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 18:59 Even Reading University isn't in Reading!
Nearer than Warwick University is to Warwick. :coat:
The Reading council area excludes many suburbs but isn't alone in this problem. Nottingham is another good example with outer suburbs in Rushcliffe, Gedling, Broxtowe, Ashfield or Erewash.
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9696
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by WHBM »

the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
Bristol ? Stockport ?
Isleworth1961
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 14:15
Location: South Gloucestershire

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Isleworth1961 »

WHBM wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 19:26
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
Bristol ? Stockport ?
Bristol is in it's own ceremonial county.
unrepentantfool
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 01:20

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by unrepentantfool »

Nearer than Warwick University is to Warwick. :coat:
The Reading council area excludes many suburbs but isn't alone in this problem. Nottingham is another good example with outer suburbs in Rushcliffe, Gedling, Broxtowe, Ashfield or Erewash.
[/quote]
Not quite, some integral parts like Earley and Tilehurst are literally split across rows of semi-detached/terraced housing. There will always be cross border cooperation between some satellites of Reading and the town itself, but the boundaries make no sense and haven’t done for decades.
unrepentantfool
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 01:20

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by unrepentantfool »

jgharston wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 17:15
unrepentantfool wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 19:11 It's half and half, London Road campus is wholly in the Borough and Whiteknights, yes, is split.
That image you posted would clearly be the proper boundary, apart from the weird salient of Sonning/Charvil, which would perfectly well fit in Windsor and Maidenhead, along with Remenham, Wargrave, Ruscombe, Hurst and Twyford.
I drew the boundary to follow the river all the way as a clear feature that wouldn't get build on top of. To go along something in the direction of the B478 there are clear gaps or features to follow. Sonning is joined to "the rest of" Reading meaning a boundary would slice through something, exactly what we're trying to avoid. And a boundary between Sonning and Charvil would be an arbitary line. You could follow the Charvil parish boundary, but that's exactly the sort of arbitary line following the fences at the bottom of the garden that is exactly the sort of things that is likely to get built across.

Plus the existing Twyford parish boundary follows the river, so you may as well follow it as an existing feature that has already proved that it is suitable to be used as a boundary. Interestingly, most of the parish boundaries in the area have already been re-aligned to follow the motorway.

I kinda get your case with Sonning, but there are a significant amount of fields between Charvil/Twyford and Reading. They belong in a rural authority, the eastern towns in Reading moved into their correct LA would make Wokingham unviable, the rump being merged with Bracknell Forest to form “East Berks” council. Twyford/Ruscombe/Wargrave and all the other northern villages in Woky district would then head into Windsor and Maidenhead as they would be even further from the population centre of the district. And that area has good rail and road connections to Maidenhead anyway.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram »

the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 When they abolished Cleveland County Council, they took the path of least resistance...
So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
jgharston wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 18:59 Even Reading University isn't in Reading!
Nearer than Warwick University is to Warwick. :coat:
The Reading council area excludes many suburbs but isn't alone in this problem. Nottingham is another good example with outer suburbs in Rushcliffe, Gedling, Broxtowe, Ashfield or Erewash.
Warwick University was, like Lancaster and Sussex universities, named for the county rather than the city it was situated in. All are 1960’s "Plate glass" universities.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Micro The Maniac »

unrepentantfool wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 21:38 I kinda get your case with Sonning, but there are a significant amount of fields between Charvil/Twyford and Reading. They belong in a rural authority, the eastern towns in Reading moved into their correct LA would make Wokingham unviable, the rump being merged with Bracknell Forest to form “East Berks” council. Twyford/Ruscombe/Wargrave and all the other northern villages in Woky district would then head into Windsor and Maidenhead as they would be even further from the population centre of the district. And that area has good rail and road connections to Maidenhead anyway.
To be honest, just as using the M4 as the southern boundary makes sense, using the A329(M)/A3290 as the eastern boundary provides a clear line. Yes, this would mean the Winnersh Triangle falls into the area... and I'd include the Thames Valley Business Park as this is (in effect) just a spur of the A3290

But I agree that merging Bracknell Forest and Wokingham seems logical
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8715
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 06:34
unrepentantfool wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 21:38 I kinda get your case with Sonning, but there are a significant amount of fields between Charvil/Twyford and Reading. They belong in a rural authority, the eastern towns in Reading moved into their correct LA would make Wokingham unviable, the rump being merged with Bracknell Forest to form “East Berks” council. Twyford/Ruscombe/Wargrave and all the other northern villages in Woky district would then head into Windsor and Maidenhead as they would be even further from the population centre of the district. And that area has good rail and road connections to Maidenhead anyway.
To be honest, just as using the M4 as the southern boundary makes sense, using the A329(M)/A3290 as the eastern boundary provides a clear line. Yes, this would mean the Winnersh Triangle falls into the area... and I'd include the Thames Valley Business Park as this is (in effect) just a spur of the A3290

But I agree that merging Bracknell Forest and Wokingham seems logical
As things stand, Wokingham is the most populous of the Berkshire authorities which is surprising to outsiders likeme.
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8715
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat »

Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 22:09
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 When they abolished Cleveland County Council, they took the path of least resistance...
So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
jgharston wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 18:59 Even Reading University isn't in Reading!
Nearer than Warwick University is to Warwick. :coat:
The Reading council area excludes many suburbs but isn't alone in this problem. Nottingham is another good example with outer suburbs in Rushcliffe, Gedling, Broxtowe, Ashfield or Erewash.
Warwick University was, like Lancaster and Sussex universities, named for the county rather than the city it was situated in. All are 1960’s "Plate glass" universities.
In the first 2 examples, I suppose using the names of the historic place that gave the county its name is considered to add a certain gravitas.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man »

WHBM wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 19:26
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
Bristol ? Stockport ?
Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.

trickstat wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 08:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 22:09 Warwick University was, like Lancaster and Sussex universities, named for the county rather than the city it was situated in. All are 1960’s "Plate glass" universities.
In the first 2 examples, I suppose using the names of the historic place that gave the county its name is considered to add a certain gravitas.
Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram »

the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:42 When they abolished Cleveland County Council, they took the path of least resistance...
So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
Well, they could have retained the ceremonial county of Cleveland, but actually went the extra mile there to re-establish the old Durham/North Riding boundary and put the Lord Lieutenant out of a job. Cleveland still exists for some purposes such as policing and fire services, and I think public transport may also be a joint committee thing. The urban area demands that these services exist in that form. And if you're going to have Metro Mayors (I'm not a fan, but there you go) then there should be one for Cleveland, but they've put Darlington in with it and called it Tees Valley. Maybe Darlington should have been included in Cleveland in the first place (perhaps not under that name), then it might have survived.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8715
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 19:47
WHBM wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 19:26
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 18:52So much so that that Stockton became the only borough split between two ceremonial counties.
Bristol ? Stockport ?
Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.

trickstat wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 08:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 22:09 Warwick University was, like Lancaster and Sussex universities, named for the county rather than the city it was situated in. All are 1960’s "Plate glass" universities.
In the first 2 examples, I suppose using the names of the historic place that gave the county its name is considered to add a certain gravitas.
Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram »

trickstat wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:31
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 19:47
WHBM wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 19:26 Bristol ? Stockport ?
Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.
trickstat wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 08:15 In the first 2 examples, I suppose using the names of the historic place that gave the county its name is considered to add a certain gravitas.
Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.
UCE is now Birmingham City University and has been for several years. I quite liked the former name, but it's their choice, and I expect they researched before changing.

There's an urban myth that Northumbria was moments away from becoming the City University of Newcastle upon Tyne, before someone realised what the abbreviation would be, but that seems just a bit too convenient.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by KeithW »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 21:52 Well, they could have retained the ceremonial county of Cleveland, but actually went the extra mile there to re-establish the old Durham/North Riding boundary and put the Lord Lieutenant out of a job. Cleveland still exists for some purposes such as policing and fire services, and I think public transport may also be a joint committee thing. The urban area demands that these services exist in that form. And if you're going to have Metro Mayors (I'm not a fan, but there you go) then there should be one for Cleveland, but they've put Darlington in with it and called it Tees Valley. Maybe Darlington should have been included in Cleveland in the first place (perhaps not under that name), then it might have survived.
The effective regional level is the Tees Valley Combined Authority which does have an elected mayor, Ben Houchen, who was re-elected this year getting 75% of the vote. The TVCA has assumed responsibility for transport planning across the board and has been able to get access to DfT funding for road, rail and airport redevelopment. Local railway stations have got a major makeover, Teesside Airport has been taken back into public ownership and the terminal refurbished. Business is increasing even with the Covid pandemic. They have also managed to attract considerable private investment including GE Renewables who are building a major wind generator manufacturing facility.

https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/
https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/about/talk ... es-valley/
https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ ... eesside-uk
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8715
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:48
trickstat wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:31
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 19:47
Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.

Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.
UCE is now Birmingham City University and has been for several years. I quite liked the former name, but it's their choice, and I expect they researched before changing.
They presumably don't want any Villa fans at the uni with a name like that!
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram »

trickstat wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 08:32
Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:48
trickstat wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:31
Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.
UCE is now Birmingham City University and has been for several years. I quite liked the former name, but it's their choice, and I expect they researched before changing.
They presumably don't want any Villa fans at the uni with a name like that!
There is already an Aston University, of course.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:48 UCE is now Birmingham City University and has been for several years. I quite liked the former name, but it's their choice, and I expect they researched before changing.
UCE was a bit vague, like UWE. I vaguely remember that proposals such as Nottingham City University and Birmingham City University were initially rejected as too similar to the existing universities.
There's an urban myth that Northumbria was moments away from becoming the City University of Newcastle upon Tyne, before someone realised what the abbreviation would be, but that seems just a bit too convenient.
:lol: Like it. It would be no more impossible than West Yorkshire Police calling their Ripper Squad the Special Homicide Investigation Team, a name the Byford Report would seem to back up.
Fenlander
Member
Posts: 7794
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 21:54
Location: south Lincolnshire

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Fenlander »

trickstat wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:31
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 19:47
WHBM wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 19:26
Bristol ? Stockport ?
Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.

trickstat wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 08:15

In the first 2 examples, I suppose using the names of the historic place that gave the county its name is considered to add a certain gravitas.
Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.
I was one of the last years to still have to apply separately to both Polytechnics & Universities, the change happened between me applying and there was a lot of snobbery at the time over the renaming of some of the polys.
I still think we should have kept the polys & other technical colleges along with their what we now call STEM focus, some of them lost their focus once they were placed in direct competition with the rest of the unis. I went to the University of Hull and next door used to be Humberside Polytechnic, it’s the Triggers Broom of education - now being renamed and relocated as the University of Lincoln.
Post Reply