Moving a borough / district boundary

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trickstat
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat »

Fenlander wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 08:49
trickstat wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:31
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 19:47

Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.




Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.
I was one of the last years to still have to apply separately to both Polytechnics & Universities, the change happened between me applying and there was a lot of snobbery at the time over the renaming of some of the polys.
I still think we should have kept the polys & other technical colleges along with their what we now call STEM focus, some of them lost their focus once they were placed in direct competition with the rest of the unis. I went to the University of Hull and next door used to be Humberside Polytechnic, it’s the Triggers Broom of education - now being renamed and relocated as the University of Lincoln.
There has been quite a bit of toing and froing amongst the former polys and colleges of HE. Near me, for a time, Luton and Bedford (a former HE College) were part of the same institution and now they aren't.

I think it helps when these 'new' universities can have a focus. Hertfordshire University (formerly Hatfield Poly) appears to have a better reputation than many and appears to be strong in medical areas including nursing. It is where my niece got her physiotherapy degree which meant that she could stay at home and travel daily.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Steven wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 08:01
Telstarbox wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 22:47 I know that some council districts have been merged recently such as those in Buckinghamshire and Suffolk, but is land ever moved between districts nowadays?
Absolutely all the time! This is exactly the reason that historic counties (which haven't changed since the Detached Parts Act of 1848) are preferred as a static geography over administrative areas.
I wanted to come back to this because I wasn't sure that this was quite true. And bearing in mind that maps showing county boundaries before 1974 drew Warwickshire as including the whole of Birmingham in its present form (almost anyway, there have been some minor changes since then), I needed to check this. Birmingham - which has always been in Warwickshire no matter how large or small - has grown considerably since 1848. The area I live in - Kings Heath - was absorbed in 1911 as part of the Kings Norton and Northfield Urban District. This was historically part of Worcestershire, and there are bits and pieces of evidence around the area that provide evidence for this, such as the recently-closed North Worcestershire Golf Club in Northfield, and a building on a side street near me which clearly had something to do with the County Council, as there is the emblem of the Worcestershire pear above the door. Not all of the Urban District was absorbed, but the article states that "The Urban District was finally abolished in 1911 as part of the provisions of the Greater Birmingham Act, when much of its area was incorporated into the County Borough of Birmingham, and thereby became associated with Warwickshire." And this is reflected in the mapping of much of the 20th century.

Now I know that Steven will say "But that's just Wikipedia, so what?". So I looked further. This page shows how the city boundaries expanded from 1838 up to 1931, after which they remained unchanged until 1974. The areas absorbed were variously part of Worcestershire, Staffordshire and Warwickshire - but the key piece of information for me is footnote 22, which reads "22. By Art. V of the order altering the city boundaries, the boundaries of the counties of Staffs., Warws. and Worcs. were correspondingly altered so that the whole city should be in the county of Warwick for civil purposes." This says to me that there was a schedule attaching to the Greater Birmingham Act of 1911 covering how county boundaries were henceforth to be drawn. Later additions to the city were already within Warwickshire, meaning that no further change to county boundaries were necessary.

Something similar happened in Sheffield, when some southern suburbs that lay within Derbyshire were transferred into the County Borough of Sheffield, and became part of the West Riding for these "civil purposes", whatever they were. And again, the mapping, including road atlases, show Dore and Totley and Abbeydale and so on within the West Riding of Yorkshire. It may have happened to other cities as well, if you know please do tell.

Then we come to Dudley - in 1966 Dudley's borough boundaries were expanded to take in most of Sedgley, Coseley and Brierley Hill, all of which were in Staffordshire, while Dudley itself had been a detached part of Worcestershire, one not "tidied up" by the Counties (Detached Parts) Act of 1848. Several sources that I have found state that as a result Dudley itself was transferred into Staffordshire. This one I'm not so sure of, even though it might make sense - maps continued to show Dudley in its island of Worcs within Staffs, and the people of Dudley itself would, I think, have been annoyed to be told that they were in any sense Staffordians, whereas the folk of Kings Norton and Northfield seem to have accepted their transition, and allegiance to, for example, Warwickshire cricket club is pretty universal. Of course, the fact that Worcestershire continued to play county matches in Dudley up until the demise of the Dudley cricket ground due to mining subsidence would have helped affirm their allegiance. Against that, however, we have this. This shows the history of Dudley as a registration area, and there is a note saying "All the areas in Dudley registration district became part of the county of Staffordshire on 1.4.1966." And this page seems to back it up. So perhaps it is true that Dudley moved to Staffs, but it never seeped into peoples' consciousness. And it only lasted eight years anyway before the 1974 reorganisation.

Why is this important? Well, it affects the baseline that we use for traditional counties. Some of the post-1848 changes were pretty significant, and as I say were the basis for the mapping that followed their implementation. So perhaps it would make sense to use the final "frozen in time" boundaries as of 1974 for our wiki? I think it makes sense, what do you all think?
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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trickstat wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:25There has been quite a bit of toing and froing amongst the former polys and colleges of HE. Near me, for a time, Luton and Bedford (a former HE College) were part of the same institution and now they aren't.
I think it helps when these 'new' universities can have a focus. Hertfordshire University (formerly Hatfield Poly) appears to have a better reputation than many and appears to be strong in medical areas including nursing. It is where my niece got her physiotherapy degree which meant that she could stay at home and travel daily.
When I moved to Birmingham in 1983 there were two Universities - the University of Birmingham, and the University of Aston in Birmingham (yes, that was its full title), plus Birmingham Polytechnic. There are now five: the aforementioned UoB, Aston University (with a more concise name), the Poly became University of Central England and is now Birmingham City University, there is Newman University which had previously been a Catholic teacher training college called Newman College, and there is University College Birmingham, which back in 1983 was the College of Food and Domestic Arts. Is this too many? Like Fenlander, I think it's a shame that the Polys lost their USP. Many of them have struggled trying to ape the older universities, when they were doing a fine job in the vocational, technical and other FE sectors. But then I suppose their principals wouldn't have been able to call themselves Vice Chancellors and award themselves the higher salaries that seem necessarily to go with the job.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 15:06 Why is this important? Well, it affects the baseline that we use for traditional counties. Some of the post-1848 changes were pretty significant, and as I say were the basis for the mapping that followed their implementation. So perhaps it would make sense to use the final "frozen in time" boundaries as of 1974 for our wiki? I think it makes sense, what do you all think?
Except of course, that it's actually, unsurprisingly for Wikipedia, utterly incorrect.

It follows the standard false assumption that historic counties are the same thing as pre-1974 Administrative Counties and their associated County Boroughs. But in fact, those Administrative Counties were created in the LGA 1888 and based upon the historic counties, but they were not the same; and fundamentally those changes were to the post-1888 bodies, the ones that were abolished in 1974.

It's even ridiculously easy to prove that Wikipedia (and this assertion) is incorrect, as the historic counties (called ancient counties) appear in census data into the twentieth century...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Steven wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 16:13
Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 15:06 Why is this important? Well, it affects the baseline that we use for traditional counties. Some of the post-1848 changes were pretty significant, and as I say were the basis for the mapping that followed their implementation. So perhaps it would make sense to use the final "frozen in time" boundaries as of 1974 for our wiki? I think it makes sense, what do you all think?
Except of course, that it's actually, unsurprisingly for Wikipedia, utterly incorrect.

It follows the standard false assumption that historic counties are the same thing as pre-1974 Administrative Counties and their associated County Boroughs. But in fact, those Administrative Counties were created in the LGA 1888 and based upon the historic counties, but they were not the same; and fundamentally those changes were to the post-1888 bodies, the ones that were abolished in 1974.

It's even ridiculously easy to prove that Wikipedia (and this assertion) is incorrect, as the historic counties (called ancient counties) appear in census data into the twentieth century...
I'm not relying on Wikipedia as the final arbiter, but I think it's reasonable to start there and test its assertions. If it turns out from other evidence that there really was a change in county boundary in 1911 as regards the expansion of Birmingham, then I'll accept that.

But we now have a new baseline in the form of these "adminstrative counties" as created in 1888, which at the time shared boundaries with the traditional counties but you say are "not the same", though in what way is unclear. If we are, as we are, a society concerned with roads, then it seems to me that the pre-1974 counties we should be interested in would be the adminstrative counties, which after all are the bodies that built many of the roads, improved them, managed them, named them, numbered them ... the 1848 traditional counties were no longer even drawn on maps, at least not ones in everyday use. They're interesting in a deeply historical way, but not really from a roads point of view. And, as I say, nobody from Kings Heath considers themselves as living in Worcestershire in any way.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 17:03 But we now have a new baseline in the form of these "adminstrative counties" as created in 1888, which at the time shared boundaries with the traditional counties but you say are "not the same", though in what way is unclear.
They didn't share the same boundaries, hence the hypothesis instantly falls apart.
If we are, as we are, a society concerned with roads, then it seems to me that the pre-1974 counties we should be interested in would be the adminstrative counties, which after all are the bodies that built many of the roads, improved them, managed them, named them, numbered them ... the 1848 traditional counties were no longer even drawn on maps, at least not ones in everyday use. They're interesting in a deeply historical way, but not really from a roads point of view. And, as I say, nobody from Kings Heath considers themselves as living in Worcestershire in any way.
So, what is the proposal for dealing with County Boroughs that were not part of the 1888-1974 Administrative Counties? And what about all the changes in the boundaries of the Administrative Counties or County Boroughs over time?

Asserting that the 1888-1974 Administrative Counties were somehow fixed is clearly false; they suffer from the same issues as present day local authorities - the boundaries moved on an ad-hoc basis as required by the purposes of administration.

If we are going to attempt to play the "society concerned with roads" card, then there's only one set of static geography that's equally valid from the creation of classification in 1922 to today, which is why we use it.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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County boroughs were "associated" with a county even if they were administered separately from them. So Birmingham was associated with Warwickshire, Wolverhampton with Staffordshire, Sheffield with the West Riding and so on. And ok, so the boundaries changed from time to time, but my view is that we use the final situation as of 1974. Those boundaries can never change, can they? Suggest to a resident of Harborne that they live in Staffordshire and they'll say "You what?". Try telling a resident of Dore that they're in Derbyshire and it'll be "Gi'o'er". It's not meaningful to anyone other than a serious student of the history of local administration, and they're pretty thin on the ground.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 18:31 County boroughs were "associated" with a county even if they were administered separately from them. So Birmingham was associated with Warwickshire, Wolverhampton with Staffordshire, Sheffield with the West Riding and so on. And ok, so the boundaries changed from time to time, but my view is that we use the final situation as of 1974. Those boundaries can never change, can they?
What value would it gain to essentially perform a reset on which historical boundaries we use by choosing another set? I for one have better things to do with my time than go through thousands of junctions, bridges, tunnels, and photographs to change them all.... We've chosen a point in time and for better or worse, we should stick with it.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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WHBM wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 17:49
Piatkow wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46 Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
The post codes are indeed based on postal delivery offices - how else ? This did lead to a long-running issue with Windsor Castle, let alone the town, with a postcode of SL4 and an address of Windsor, SLOUGH.
Not quite. Whilst Slough is the name of the postal area, and there was a campaign for a WM postal area (Windsor and Maidenhead) to replace SL, Windsor remains the post town. "Slough" would not be part of the address. It would be "123 Fake Street, WINDSOR SL4 xxx" (note the post town is in capitals as per Royal Mail guidance).

If "Slough" were in the address then it would be like me having to put "Temple Ewell, Dover, Canterbury CT16 xxx" as Dover comes under the Canterbury CT postal area.
Piatkow wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46 Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
It works at district level too. Capel-le-Ferne is right next to Folkestone, has an 01303 phone code, and a postal address of "123 Fake Street, Capel-le-Ferne, FOLKESTONE CT18 xxx". Yet it comes under Dover District Council and the Dover MP serves the village due to the border between Dover and Folkestone and Hythe districts being where it is. A slightly different example is the village of Ash, which is just 2 miles from Sandwich and 12 miles from Canterbury, but is "Ash, CANTERBURY" rather than "Ash, SANDWICH" due to being in the CT3 post zone.

When we were looking at houses we looked at a couple in Aylesham, which is in Dover district but right on the border with Canterbury. A bit of me is glad we didn't as my address would have been "123 Fake Street, Aylesham, CANTERBURY CT3 xxx" but I would have had an 01304 code (not 01227) and paid my taxes to Dover District Council despite being in "Canterbury"! :-D

Back on the original topic, Knockholt was historically in Kent until it moved to Greater London in 1965. Following a campaign it was returned to Kent in 1969 when the border was moved once more - although its railway station remains in Greater London.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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c2R wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 18:37 What value would it gain to essentially perform a reset on which historical boundaries we use by choosing another set? I for one have better things to do with my time than go through thousands of junctions, bridges, tunnels, and photographs to change them all.... We've chosen a point in time and for better or worse, we should stick with it.
As with many things based on shifting sands, it's arguring about two different entities, the 1848 "counties" and the 1974 "counties". The two have usefulnesses for different things. And even they have exceptions. Is Peterborough in Northamptonshire (pre1888)? Or is it in Soke (1888-1965, never part of Northamptonshire County Council)? Or Huntingdonshire (1965-1974)? Or Cambridgeshire?
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Fenlander wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 08:49 I was one of the last years to still have to apply separately to both Polytechnics & Universities, the change happened between me applying and there was a lot of snobbery at the time over the renaming of some of the polys.
I still think we should have kept the polys & other technical colleges along with their what we now call STEM focus, some of them lost their focus once they were placed in direct competition with the rest of the unis. I went to the University of Hull and next door used to be Humberside Polytechnic, it’s the Triggers Broom of education - now being renamed and relocated as the University of Lincoln.
Many people did not understand the change from polytechnic to university.

My understanding is that university staff were firstly researchers and secondly teachers whereas polytechnic staff were primarily teachers and secondly researchers. Also, the polytechnics were controlled centrally whereas each university set its own syllabus. Some university syllabuses were overseen by professional bodies - for example, a degree in X engineering from the University of Y exempted you from the entrance exams for the Institute of X engineers, whereas the same degree from the University of Z, which was of a lower standard, did not accredit you with entry to the professional body.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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The main distinction was that for degree (and above) qualifications, universities awarded their own degrees, whereas polytechnics had to rely on the CNAA, the Council for National Academic Awards for their degrees. Obviously a CNAA degree was every bit as valid as a university degree but the polys pushed to be able to award their own degrees ... and the rest is history.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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jgharston wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 20:19
c2R wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 18:37 What value would it gain to essentially perform a reset on which historical boundaries we use by choosing another set? I for one have better things to do with my time than go through thousands of junctions, bridges, tunnels, and photographs to change them all.... We've chosen a point in time and for better or worse, we should stick with it.
As with many things based on shifting sands, it's arguring about two different entities, the 1848 "counties" and the 1974 "counties". The two have usefulnesses for different things. And even they have exceptions. Is Peterborough in Northamptonshire (pre1888)? Or is it in Soke (1888-1965, never part of Northamptonshire County Council)? Or Huntingdonshire (1965-1974)? Or Cambridgeshire?
For us, it isn't... we record two things against each entity (in addition to actual coordinate location), and that is the authority responsible for it, and the historical county that it sits in. The map of historical counties that we use is here:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 12&layer=0

Therefore, for our purposes, Peterborough is in both Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire, as well as being its own unitary.

Road/junction/crossing articles should reference changes in ownership where it is relevant; e.g. where Cambridgeshire might have built something as the highway authority that is now in Peterborough, but it is not possible for us to record all ownerships and locations that there have ever been in the form of useful attributes against articles, so we've just chosen two and stated what they are.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 18:31 Try telling a resident of Dore that they're in Derbyshire and it'll be "Gi'o'er". It's not meaningful to anyone other than a serious student of the history of local administration, and they're pretty thin on the ground.
You won't hear many people in Dore speaking like that. It's far too posh!

But you have a good example. Many fans of historic counties seem to think those that existed in 1974 were unchanged since their Saxon creation. But parts of Derbyshire were moved into Sheffield in 1908 ( ?) and further parts in 1967. Also I've never heard anyone in any of those parts claim they are in any sense still in Derbyshire. But why not when I have heard claims that Southport is still in Lancashire, Croydon in Surrey, Barking in Essex, Bromley in Kent, Wolverhampton in Staffordshire, Cheadle in Cheshire etc.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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c2R wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 00:09 The map of historical counties that we use is here:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 12&layer=0

Therefore, for our purposes, Peterborough is in both Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire, as well as being its own unitary.
So it seems both Bristol and Stockport are divided between historic counties, according to that.

There were indeed some longstanding inconsistencies. The two, separate, detached parts of Kent on the north bank of the Thames at North Woolwich for example, which got tidied up in 1967. The bit of Flintshire which was separated from the rest of it - once there were many such, an act in Victorian times tidied them up but these ones were left behind.

One can observe that at least we are better than the USA, which has a vast number of boundary inconsistencies. The City of Los Angeles has a succession of small enclaves and exclaves, the well-known "Sunset Strip" is an inner city section of Sunset Boulevard which has never been incorporated into Los Angeles, and in recent times became an independent city, not paying LA taxes, having the county Sheriff instead of the city police, etc, despite the longstanding best endeavours of the city authorities to include it.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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WHBM wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 20:40
c2R wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 00:09 The map of historical counties that we use is here:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 12&layer=0

Therefore, for our purposes, Peterborough is in both Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire, as well as being its own unitary.
So it seems both Bristol and Stockport are divided between historic counties, according to that.
Bristol has been a county in it's own right since 1373...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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In 1936 the boundary between Cheshire & Derbyshire was realigned, with Marple Bridge being moved into Cheshire.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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WHBM wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 20:40
c2R wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 00:09 The map of historical counties that we use is here:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 12&layer=0

Therefore, for our purposes, Peterborough is in both Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire, as well as being its own unitary.
So it seems both Bristol and Stockport are divided between historic counties, according to that.

There were indeed some longstanding inconsistencies. The two, separate, detached parts of Kent on the north bank of the Thames at North Woolwich for example, which got tidied up in 1967. The bit of Flintshire which was separated from the rest of it - once there were many such, an act in Victorian times tidied them up but these ones were left behind.

One can observe that at least we are better than the USA, which has a vast number of boundary inconsistencies. The City of Los Angeles has a succession of small enclaves and exclaves, the well-known "Sunset Strip" is an inner city section of Sunset Boulevard which has never been incorporated into Los Angeles, and in recent times became an independent city, not paying LA taxes, having the county Sheriff instead of the city police, etc, despite the longstanding best endeavours of the city authorities to include it.
The detached part of Flintshire is also known as the English Maelor, or Maelor Saesneg, being on the "English" side of the River Dee. Overton is the main town, and gave its name to the Rural District prior to reorganization. The place names are mostly of English character, and in the late 19th century there was a local referendum on incorporation into Shropshire. This apparently passed, but was never acted upon. It's now part of Wrexham County Borough.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 20:14 Many fans of historic counties seem to think those that existed in 1974 were unchanged since their Saxon creation.
I'm afraid that's fallen straight into the trap of misunderstanding and "county confusion", as explained upthread.

The bodies abolished in 1974 were those Administrative Counties created in the Local Government Act of 1888, and are not the historic counties.

Those Administrative Counties (and County Boroughs), as with modern local authorities, saw regular boundary changes, which are the changes listed in the last few posts. None of these changes touched the historic counties themselves.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

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Vierwielen wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 20:41 Many people did not understand the change from polytechnic to university.

My understanding is that university staff were firstly researchers and secondly teachers whereas polytechnic staff were primarily teachers and secondly researchers.
My perception was that polytechnics were more hands-on, engineering, actually doing stuff; universities were more theoretical, abstraction, concepts.

In 1987 I got a place at Teesside Poly. My head of sixth form phoned me to announce "I've got you into a UNIVERSITY!!!!!!" so I went to Stirling University. I spent three years there wondering when I'd actually "do" something relevant. Some years later I found sufficient information to tell me that I should have gone to Teesside.
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