Moving a borough / district boundary

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 Historic counties were not formally abolished so legally still exist. But then hundreds were never formally abolished but noone insists on using them (except when thinking up obscure names for some district councils (especially around Nottingham)).
Does something have to be formally "abolished" to cease to exist? Surely replacement by a successor body does the job just as well.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 19:03 Does something have to be formally "abolished" to cease to exist? Surely replacement by a successor body does the job just as well.
I agree but as can be seen from this thread (and plenty others) many people don't. Of course part of the issue is that historic county councils were decisively abolished eg noone claiming West Riding of Yorkshire still exists would also claim West Riding County Council does (unless it's in the tunnel with the Strategic Reserve?!) but the historic counties weren't. This seems an artificial distinction to me: if something theoretically exists but has no effect on anything then in reality it doesn't exist as in these two analogies.

A railway hasn't been formally closed so still officially has a train service and anyone could buy a train ticket to it. But it has only a parliamentary service of one replacement bus per day, and that bus doesn't exist either but is an on-demand taxi for the once-in-a-blue moon passenger. The vast majority of tickets sold to it are bought not by passengers going there but by trainspotters collecting rare tickets. Does that train service really exist?

The Privy Council hasn't been officially abolished. It still has theoretical powers. It still has (right honourable) members. But it never meets and anything done in its name using its power is actually done by ministers or civil servants. Does it really exist?
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram »

The Privy Council? Yes, it does, but it seldom meets in plenary session, if that's what you mean.

Steven's historic counties, OTOH, lost whatever residual powers, if any, remained with them in 1888 and were replaced by new entities with similar names and largely the same boundaries. If that's not abolition, then it's something remarkably difficult to tell apart from it. So if they can be said stíll to exist, it's purely as a part of the historical record and on maps documenting that record. Just like the Holy Roman Empire, really.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5661
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Vierwielen »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 20:44 The Privy Council hasn't been officially abolished. It still has theoretical powers. It still has (right honourable) members. But it never meets and anything done in its name using its power is actually done by ministers or civil servants. Does it really exist?
The Privy Council certainly does exist and HM is regularly briefed by its members. In theory, discussions with HM are confidential, but a few days ago, HM was recorded as saying "Poor Hancock". Hancock had briefed HM a few hours earlier.

The Privy Council is also provides a mechanism whereby the Prime Minister can release confidential information to the leader of the opposition - he does so in his capacity of one Privy Councillor to another.
User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by jgharston »

the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.
Barborough's *miles* from Sheffield, I would expect that's refering to being transfered to Rotherham Kiveton Park Rural District or similar.

Interestingly, Vision of Britain manages to have a map that perfectly snapshots the short period between the Sheffield City boundary changing in 1967 and the constituency boundaries not yet caught up in 1970 (and first used in 1974): link.
User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by jgharston »

Vierwielen wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 21:56 The Privy Council certainly does exist and HM is regularly briefed by its members. In theory, discussions with HM are confidential, but a few days ago, HM was recorded as saying "Poor Hancock". Hancock had briefed HM a few hours earlier.

The Privy Council is also provides a mechanism whereby the Prime Minister can release confidential information to the leader of the opposition - he does so in his capacity of one Privy Councillor to another.
Also the Privy Council sort-of nominally offers the Crown to its successor upon its demise.
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Micro The Maniac »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 Similarly Liverpool residents seem happy with Merseyside (and not care whether they mean the administrative county (which still exists even though the county council doesn't) or ceremonial)) but nearby in Southport many will tell you they're in Lancashire, which is true historically not administratively or ceremonially).

Meanwhile, try telling (most) residents of The Wirral (stand-fast parts of Birkenhead) that they are in the Liverpool City Region, never mind the County of Merseyside, and you get short-shrift - they still harbour a return to Cheshire
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by KeithW »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 20:44
The Privy Council hasn't been officially abolished. It still has theoretical powers. It still has (right honourable) members. But it never meets and anything done in its name using its power is actually done by ministers or civil servants. Does it really exist?
Yes it does but the full council rarely if ever meets as many of the members listed are no longer active as a Privy Councillor is appointed for life. You may see the full list here and a more complete explanation.
https://privycouncil.independent.gov.uk/privy-council/

A committee of Privy Councillors usually only meets in times of national emergency where some degree of cross party consultation is desirable. It met regularly during the Falklands War for example and I don't doubt that Keir Starmer has been kept informed as a privy councillor. It is known that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has had oversight of the emergency regulations imposed during the covid-19 pandemic.

It has very wide ranging powers culminating with An Order In Council. This allows the Privy Council to effectively issue emergency legislation which has not been passed by Parliament, the monarch must be present at such meetings and must give assent. Orders in Council were the primary way of governing Northern Ireland during direct rule while Stormont was suspended. The legal fiction is that it is the monarch acting on the advice of her/his advisors.
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8715
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 While in Scunthorpe the answers will be probably be split between Lincolnshire and North Lincolnshire. Nobody will claim they're still in the hated Humberside.
Talking of Humberside, a few years back there was a letter in the sport section of the Sunday Times from a reader in Hull. He was complaining that a match report the previous week had described (I think) Hull City as a "Humberside club" when Hull is in Yorkshire. I was half tempted to write in myself pointing out that his stubbornness certainly fitted that of an archetypal Yorkshireman, but that Hull is a Humberside club because the city (unlike Scunthorpe) is on the side of the River Humber!
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7500
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Big L »

trickstat wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 17:22... River Humber!
Estuary, not river.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9851
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by owen b »

Big L wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 17:51
trickstat wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 17:22... River Humber!
Estuary, not river.
The Ordnance Survey's maps refer to the River Humber in the vicinity of Hull.
Owen
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7500
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Big L »

owen b wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 20:51
Big L wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 17:51
trickstat wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 17:22... River Humber!
Estuary, not river.
The Ordnance Survey's maps refer to the River Humber in the vicinity of Hull.
That's nice. Could be a copyright trap, since the Humber is an estuary, not a river.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9851
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by owen b »

Big L wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 20:57
owen b wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 20:51
Big L wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 17:51
Estuary, not river.
The Ordnance Survey's maps refer to the River Humber in the vicinity of Hull.
That's nice. Could be a copyright trap, since the Humber is an estuary, not a river.
There's a semantic question as to whether the terms "river" and "estuary" are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are and from their maps evidently neither does the Ordnance Survey. The National Geographic society states : "Rivers can also form what is called an estuary, where salty seawater mixes with fresh water near the river mouth to form “brackish water.” " https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/river/ That well describes the Humber. The first definition of "river" which pops up on a Google search is : "a large natural stream of water flowing in a channel to the sea, a lake, or another river", which again does not exclude estuaries.
Owen
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by KeithW »

owen b wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 21:19 There's a semantic question as to whether the terms "river" and "estuary" are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are and from their maps evidently neither does the Ordnance Survey. The National Geographic society states : "Rivers can also form what is called an estuary, where salty seawater mixes with fresh water near the river mouth to form “brackish water.” " https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/river/ That well describes the Humber. The first definition of "river" which pops up on a Google search is : "a large natural stream of water flowing in a channel to the sea, a lake, or another river", which again does not exclude estuaries.
Indeed however the Humber is something of an outlier as the point at which saline and fresh water mixes is as I recall quite close to where the Trent and Ouse merge so you can make a case for the idea that the Humber is an estuary into which the Trent and Ouse flow.
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9851
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by owen b »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 23:19
owen b wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 21:19 There's a semantic question as to whether the terms "river" and "estuary" are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are and from their maps evidently neither does the Ordnance Survey. The National Geographic society states : "Rivers can also form what is called an estuary, where salty seawater mixes with fresh water near the river mouth to form “brackish water.” " https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/river/ That well describes the Humber. The first definition of "river" which pops up on a Google search is : "a large natural stream of water flowing in a channel to the sea, a lake, or another river", which again does not exclude estuaries.
Indeed however the Humber is something of an outlier as the point at which saline and fresh water mixes is as I recall quite close to where the Trent and Ouse merge so you can make a case for the idea that the Humber is an estuary into which the Trent and Ouse flow.
Yes, I agree, the Humber is an estuary, and also a river.
Owen
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Stephen's favourite, reliable source states:
Although the Humber is an estuary from the point at which it is formed, many maps show it, erroneously, as the River Humber.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man »

jgharston wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 23:47
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.
Barborough's *miles* from Sheffield, I would expect that's refering to being transfered to Rotherham Kiveton Park Rural District or similar.
It is a few miles. But for a council pumped up by their annexation of Beighton and Mosborough gobbling up Eckington, Killamarsh, Renishaw and Barlborough for further urban sprawl might seem a logical next step. Why would Kiveton Park RDC want it?

More importantly this local website claims it was Sheffield.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man »

owen b wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 07:52 Yes, I agree, the Humber is an estuary, and also a river.
My dictionary defines estuary as "the widening channel of a river where it nears the sea".

An estuary is part of a river not a completely different hydrological feature. Calling the Humber a river is correct, just not as precise as calling it an estuary.

Just like if I say "that furry quadruped wagging its tail and barking is a dog", you might respond "it's a poodle you wally", but you aren't saying I'm wrong (just a bit ignorant on canine matters).
User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by jgharston »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 19:45
jgharston wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 23:47
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.
Barborough's *miles* from Sheffield, I would expect that's refering to being transfered to Rotherham Kiveton Park Rural District or similar.
It is a few miles. But for a council pumped up by their annexation of Beighton and Mosborough gobbling up Eckington, Killamarsh, Renishaw and Barlborough for further urban sprawl might seem a logical next step. Why would Kiveton Park RDC want it?

More importantly this local website claims it was Sheffield.
If it was 1969-71 as claimed by the website, it wasn't Sheffield trying to gobble up Barborough, it was the Government trying to carve up the country with the local government reorganisation. Sheffield were just aiming for Mosborough and Ecclesfield as contiguous urban development and had eyed up Dronfield, but never anything further.

Without scanning my copy of the Redcliffe-Maud report (two volumns plus maps!) this wiki map is the best I can find; you can just tell it annexes most of North East Derbyshire into "South Yorkshire". Rotherham and Barnsley were just as aghast at the prospect of being abolished - as were Sheffield City Council!
User avatar
Big Nick
Member
Posts: 4348
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 08:27
Location: Epping, Essex

Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Big Nick »

Surely all of Newmarket should be in Cambridgeshire? :stir:
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 53,0.38124,


And what was going on near Ashby-de-la-Zouch?
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 53,0.38124,
Post Reply