Does something have to be formally "abolished" to cease to exist? Surely replacement by a successor body does the job just as well.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 Historic counties were not formally abolished so legally still exist. But then hundreds were never formally abolished but noone insists on using them (except when thinking up obscure names for some district councils (especially around Nottingham)).
Moving a borough / district boundary
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
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- the cheesecake man
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
I agree but as can be seen from this thread (and plenty others) many people don't. Of course part of the issue is that historic county councils were decisively abolished eg noone claiming West Riding of Yorkshire still exists would also claim West Riding County Council does (unless it's in the tunnel with the Strategic Reserve?!) but the historic counties weren't. This seems an artificial distinction to me: if something theoretically exists but has no effect on anything then in reality it doesn't exist as in these two analogies.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 19:03 Does something have to be formally "abolished" to cease to exist? Surely replacement by a successor body does the job just as well.
A railway hasn't been formally closed so still officially has a train service and anyone could buy a train ticket to it. But it has only a parliamentary service of one replacement bus per day, and that bus doesn't exist either but is an on-demand taxi for the once-in-a-blue moon passenger. The vast majority of tickets sold to it are bought not by passengers going there but by trainspotters collecting rare tickets. Does that train service really exist?
The Privy Council hasn't been officially abolished. It still has theoretical powers. It still has (right honourable) members. But it never meets and anything done in its name using its power is actually done by ministers or civil servants. Does it really exist?
- Chris Bertram
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
The Privy Council? Yes, it does, but it seldom meets in plenary session, if that's what you mean.
Steven's historic counties, OTOH, lost whatever residual powers, if any, remained with them in 1888 and were replaced by new entities with similar names and largely the same boundaries. If that's not abolition, then it's something remarkably difficult to tell apart from it. So if they can be said stíll to exist, it's purely as a part of the historical record and on maps documenting that record. Just like the Holy Roman Empire, really.
Steven's historic counties, OTOH, lost whatever residual powers, if any, remained with them in 1888 and were replaced by new entities with similar names and largely the same boundaries. If that's not abolition, then it's something remarkably difficult to tell apart from it. So if they can be said stíll to exist, it's purely as a part of the historical record and on maps documenting that record. Just like the Holy Roman Empire, really.
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- Vierwielen
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
The Privy Council certainly does exist and HM is regularly briefed by its members. In theory, discussions with HM are confidential, but a few days ago, HM was recorded as saying "Poor Hancock". Hancock had briefed HM a few hours earlier.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 20:44 The Privy Council hasn't been officially abolished. It still has theoretical powers. It still has (right honourable) members. But it never meets and anything done in its name using its power is actually done by ministers or civil servants. Does it really exist?
The Privy Council is also provides a mechanism whereby the Prime Minister can release confidential information to the leader of the opposition - he does so in his capacity of one Privy Councillor to another.
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Barborough's *miles* from Sheffield, I would expect that's refering to being transfered tothe cheesecake man wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.
Interestingly, Vision of Britain manages to have a map that perfectly snapshots the short period between the Sheffield City boundary changing in 1967 and the constituency boundaries not yet caught up in 1970 (and first used in 1974): link.
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Also the Privy Council sort-of nominally offers the Crown to its successor upon its demise.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 21:56 The Privy Council certainly does exist and HM is regularly briefed by its members. In theory, discussions with HM are confidential, but a few days ago, HM was recorded as saying "Poor Hancock". Hancock had briefed HM a few hours earlier.
The Privy Council is also provides a mechanism whereby the Prime Minister can release confidential information to the leader of the opposition - he does so in his capacity of one Privy Councillor to another.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 Similarly Liverpool residents seem happy with Merseyside (and not care whether they mean the administrative county (which still exists even though the county council doesn't) or ceremonial)) but nearby in Southport many will tell you they're in Lancashire, which is true historically not administratively or ceremonially).
Meanwhile, try telling (most) residents of The Wirral (stand-fast parts of Birkenhead) that they are in the Liverpool City Region, never mind the County of Merseyside, and you get short-shrift - they still harbour a return to Cheshire
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Yes it does but the full council rarely if ever meets as many of the members listed are no longer active as a Privy Councillor is appointed for life. You may see the full list here and a more complete explanation.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 20:44
The Privy Council hasn't been officially abolished. It still has theoretical powers. It still has (right honourable) members. But it never meets and anything done in its name using its power is actually done by ministers or civil servants. Does it really exist?
https://privycouncil.independent.gov.uk/privy-council/
A committee of Privy Councillors usually only meets in times of national emergency where some degree of cross party consultation is desirable. It met regularly during the Falklands War for example and I don't doubt that Keir Starmer has been kept informed as a privy councillor. It is known that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has had oversight of the emergency regulations imposed during the covid-19 pandemic.
It has very wide ranging powers culminating with An Order In Council. This allows the Privy Council to effectively issue emergency legislation which has not been passed by Parliament, the monarch must be present at such meetings and must give assent. Orders in Council were the primary way of governing Northern Ireland during direct rule while Stormont was suspended. The legal fiction is that it is the monarch acting on the advice of her/his advisors.
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Talking of Humberside, a few years back there was a letter in the sport section of the Sunday Times from a reader in Hull. He was complaining that a match report the previous week had described (I think) Hull City as a "Humberside club" when Hull is in Yorkshire. I was half tempted to write in myself pointing out that his stubbornness certainly fitted that of an archetypal Yorkshireman, but that Hull is a Humberside club because the city (unlike Scunthorpe) is on the side of the River Humber!the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 While in Scunthorpe the answers will be probably be split between Lincolnshire and North Lincolnshire. Nobody will claim they're still in the hated Humberside.
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
The Ordnance Survey's maps refer to the River Humber in the vicinity of Hull.
Owen
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
That's nice. Could be a copyright trap, since the Humber is an estuary, not a river.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
There's a semantic question as to whether the terms "river" and "estuary" are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are and from their maps evidently neither does the Ordnance Survey. The National Geographic society states : "Rivers can also form what is called an estuary, where salty seawater mixes with fresh water near the river mouth to form “brackish water.” " https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/river/ That well describes the Humber. The first definition of "river" which pops up on a Google search is : "a large natural stream of water flowing in a channel to the sea, a lake, or another river", which again does not exclude estuaries.
Owen
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Indeed however the Humber is something of an outlier as the point at which saline and fresh water mixes is as I recall quite close to where the Trent and Ouse merge so you can make a case for the idea that the Humber is an estuary into which the Trent and Ouse flow.owen b wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 21:19 There's a semantic question as to whether the terms "river" and "estuary" are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are and from their maps evidently neither does the Ordnance Survey. The National Geographic society states : "Rivers can also form what is called an estuary, where salty seawater mixes with fresh water near the river mouth to form “brackish water.” " https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/river/ That well describes the Humber. The first definition of "river" which pops up on a Google search is : "a large natural stream of water flowing in a channel to the sea, a lake, or another river", which again does not exclude estuaries.
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Yes, I agree, the Humber is an estuary, and also a river.KeithW wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 23:19Indeed however the Humber is something of an outlier as the point at which saline and fresh water mixes is as I recall quite close to where the Trent and Ouse merge so you can make a case for the idea that the Humber is an estuary into which the Trent and Ouse flow.owen b wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 21:19 There's a semantic question as to whether the terms "river" and "estuary" are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are and from their maps evidently neither does the Ordnance Survey. The National Geographic society states : "Rivers can also form what is called an estuary, where salty seawater mixes with fresh water near the river mouth to form “brackish water.” " https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/river/ That well describes the Humber. The first definition of "river" which pops up on a Google search is : "a large natural stream of water flowing in a channel to the sea, a lake, or another river", which again does not exclude estuaries.
Owen
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Stephen's favourite, reliable source states:
Although the Humber is an estuary from the point at which it is formed, many maps show it, erroneously, as the River Humber.
- the cheesecake man
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
It is a few miles. But for a council pumped up by their annexation of Beighton and Mosborough gobbling up Eckington, Killamarsh, Renishaw and Barlborough for further urban sprawl might seem a logical next step. Why would Kiveton Park RDC want it?jgharston wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 23:47Barborough's *miles* from Sheffield, I would expect that's refering to being transfered tothe cheesecake man wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.RotherhamKiveton Park Rural District or similar.
More importantly this local website claims it was Sheffield.
- the cheesecake man
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
My dictionary defines estuary as "the widening channel of a river where it nears the sea".
An estuary is part of a river not a completely different hydrological feature. Calling the Humber a river is correct, just not as precise as calling it an estuary.
Just like if I say "that furry quadruped wagging its tail and barking is a dog", you might respond "it's a poodle you wally", but you aren't saying I'm wrong (just a bit ignorant on canine matters).
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
If it was 1969-71 as claimed by the website, it wasn't Sheffield trying to gobble up Barborough, it was the Government trying to carve up the country with the local government reorganisation. Sheffield were just aiming for Mosborough and Ecclesfield as contiguous urban development and had eyed up Dronfield, but never anything further.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 19:45It is a few miles. But for a council pumped up by their annexation of Beighton and Mosborough gobbling up Eckington, Killamarsh, Renishaw and Barlborough for further urban sprawl might seem a logical next step. Why would Kiveton Park RDC want it?jgharston wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 23:47Barborough's *miles* from Sheffield, I would expect that's refering to being transfered tothe cheesecake man wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.RotherhamKiveton Park Rural District or similar.
More importantly this local website claims it was Sheffield.
Without scanning my copy of the Redcliffe-Maud report (two volumns plus maps!) this wiki map is the best I can find; you can just tell it annexes most of North East Derbyshire into "South Yorkshire". Rotherham and Barnsley were just as aghast at the prospect of being abolished - as were Sheffield City Council!
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Surely all of Newmarket should be in Cambridgeshire?
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 53,0.38124,
And what was going on near Ashby-de-la-Zouch?
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 53,0.38124,
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 53,0.38124,
And what was going on near Ashby-de-la-Zouch?
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 53,0.38124,