50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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Glenn A
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50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Glenn A »

Next month marks the completion of the M6 in Cumbria( jcts 41-42), which meant it was now possible to travel from Carlisle to the edge of Birmingham on D3M and, barring Gretna, in the opposite direction to Glasgow on a mixture of D2 and motorway. This was a big achievement for Cumbria( well Cumberland and Westmorland at the time) and tied in nicely with a central by pass in Carlisle and the start of electrification of the WCML and plans to improve the A66.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by fras »

which meant it was now possible to travel from Carlisle to the edge of Birmingham on D3M
Indeed it did, but current traffic makes it a complete nightmare once you have got past Jn 11a (M6 Toll) ! Also a bad dream from Jns 24-15 !
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.

Still, its always amazing to think how these days we think nothing of setting our cars' cruise control to 70+ MPH to power through Cumbria, or as I saw the other day a low loader carrying a massive quarry dumper truck go along the M6 with no bother, while doing so on the old A6 would have been impossible.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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rhyds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 19:44 The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.

Still, its always amazing to think how these days we think nothing of setting our cars' cruise control to 70+ MPH to power through Cumbria, or as I saw the other day a low loader carrying a massive quarry dumper truck go along the M6 with no bother, while doing so on the old A6 would have been impossible.
Agree with this, a D2M with D3M sections at various choke points, such as around Lancaster and Carlisle. If it had only got a bog standard D2 before the eighties like the A74 I could easily see it being a Thatcher era experiment on tolling from mid Lancs up to Larkhall, get the D3M upgrade but pay to use it.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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rhyds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 19:44 The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.

Still, its always amazing to think how these days we think nothing of setting our cars' cruise control to 70+ MPH to power through Cumbria, or as I saw the other day a low loader carrying a massive quarry dumper truck go along the M6 with no bother, while doing so on the old A6 would have been impossible.
As a counter example consider the A1(M) from Alconbury to Peterborough. Given that the land cost was low it seems to me to make more sense than building bottlenecks such as the Doncaster bypass which was opened less than a decade before it. As an aside I rode a motorbike over the old A6 at Shap in summer 1968 and it was brutal.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Glenn A »

rhyds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 19:44 The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.

Still, its always amazing to think how these days we think nothing of setting our cars' cruise control to 70+ MPH to power through Cumbria, or as I saw the other day a low loader carrying a massive quarry dumper truck go along the M6 with no bother, while doing so on the old A6 would have been impossible.
Lucky it was built to such a high standard and a massive leap forward at the time, but it's interesting that the alternative could have been D2M to match the D2 A74 upgrade, yet it wasn't and we have a really good D3M up here that is a pleasure to drive on most of the time.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

During winter storms it is nice to have D3 up on the hills so I can use the third lane to pass HGV's that are having the strong side winds blow them into lane two!
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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rhyds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 19:44 The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.
When my friend in Carlisle was learning to drive, he mentioned his instructor was going to take him on the M6 and he was worrying about it. He was slightly less worried when I pointed out the A303 around Andover carries a similar volume of traffic
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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Glenn A wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 21:50 Lucky it was built to such a high standard and a massive leap forward at the time, but it's interesting that the alternative could have been D2M to match the D2 A74 upgrade, yet it wasn't and we have a really good D3M up here that is a pleasure to drive on most of the time.
Maybe that was largely a matter of lucky timing? The M6 in Cumbria was a few years later than most of the A74 dualling.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Rob590 »

The M6 is a busier road than the A74/M74 - if you look at the traffic counts on SABRE Maps the quietest stretches are more like 30-35k on the 74s, whereas it's 40-45k on the M6 - and those gaps seem to have closed a lot in the last decade too, with the difference being a good 10k or so less a decade or so ago. Cumbria may be very rural, but it is more densely populated than Dumfries and Galloway. What also stood in the M6's favour for being D3M throughout is that its quietest stretch - Kendal to Penrith - is also its steepest, and so the one on which you'd need a lot of crawller lanes if it weren't D3.

As pointed out these are low on both roads compared to a lot of other locations of course!
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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exiled wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 20:45
rhyds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 19:44 The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.

Still, its always amazing to think how these days we think nothing of setting our cars' cruise control to 70+ MPH to power through Cumbria, or as I saw the other day a low loader carrying a massive quarry dumper truck go along the M6 with no bother, while doing so on the old A6 would have been impossible.
Agree with this, a D2M with D3M sections at various choke points, such as around Lancaster and Carlisle. If it had only got a bog standard D2 before the eighties like the A74 I could easily see it being a Thatcher era experiment on tolling from mid Lancs up to Larkhall, get the D3M upgrade but pay to use it.
The M6 was designed all around the same time - so this raises the question of if D3M was deemed appropriate for the quieter Lake District sections, why was D3M considered appropriate for the bit where they must have had an inkling that most of the motorway network would converge?

IIRC the reason D3M was chosen for the Lakes was exactly because of the gradients and effects on HGVs. A rejected option involved tunnels which were struck out because of the risk of vehicle overheating and fires inside them.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:26 IIRC the reason D3M was chosen for the Lakes was exactly because of the gradients and effects on HGVs. A rejected option involved tunnels which were struck out because of the risk of vehicle overheating and fires inside them.
So basically they would have needed crawler lanes so often and for enough distances it made more economical sense to build D3 right through?
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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Rob590 wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 23:06 The M6 is a busier road than the A74/M74 - if you look at the traffic counts on SABRE Maps the quietest stretches are more like 30-35k on the 74s, whereas it's 40-45k on the M6 - and those gaps seem to have closed a lot in the last decade too, with the difference being a good 10k or so less a decade or so ago. Cumbria may be very rural, but it is more densely populated than Dumfries and Galloway. What also stood in the M6's favour for being D3M throughout is that its quietest stretch - Kendal to Penrith - is also its steepest, and so the one on which you'd need a lot of crawller lanes if it weren't D3.
Wonder how much that stretch has increased since banning HGVs from shortcutting M6 north to A66 eastwards via Kirkby Stephen? It's traffic easily absorbable (if that's a word) by the M6 though.

At least the M6 makes travelling Kendal to Penrith a pleasant journey - if you go via the A6 :)
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by coneman »

For me my abiding memory has to be after a long journey coming home on leave from Nothern Germany,
dawn on midsummers day n/bound just after J39 where the carrigeways divide , sun just rising , not much traffic and some cool jazz coming out of the speakers of my babe magnet of an XR3i. Bliss :msncool:
Many a guid tune played on an auld fiddle.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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Helvellyn wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:30 Wonder how much that stretch has increased since banning HGVs from shortcutting M6 north to A66 eastwards via Kirkby Stephen? It's traffic easily absorbable (if that's a word) by the M6 though.

At least the M6 makes travelling Kendal to Penrith a pleasant journey - if you go via the A6 :)
Not much at a guess, that road was always pretty quiet, even when they were allowed you saw very few HGV's. Total traffic levels are under 6k and most are cars.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

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KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:55
Helvellyn wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:30 Wonder how much that stretch has increased since banning HGVs from shortcutting M6 north to A66 eastwards via Kirkby Stephen? It's traffic easily absorbable (if that's a word) by the M6 though.

At least the M6 makes travelling Kendal to Penrith a pleasant journey - if you go via the A6 :)
Not much at a guess, that road was always pretty quiet, even when they were allowed you saw very few HGV's. Total traffic levels are under 6k and most are cars.
However Kendal is a nightmare to pass south to north, the town road schemes keep altering but in the end there is no other way than to go through the centre. Add to this the river crossings and tourist traffic!
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Glenn A »

Norfolktolancashire wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 14:55
KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:55
Helvellyn wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 16:30 Wonder how much that stretch has increased since banning HGVs from shortcutting M6 north to A66 eastwards via Kirkby Stephen? It's traffic easily absorbable (if that's a word) by the M6 though.

At least the M6 makes travelling Kendal to Penrith a pleasant journey - if you go via the A6 :)
Not much at a guess, that road was always pretty quiet, even when they were allowed you saw very few HGV's. Total traffic levels are under 6k and most are cars.
However Kendal is a nightmare to pass south to north, the town road schemes keep altering but in the end there is no other way than to go through the centre. Add to this the river crossings and tourist traffic!
Kendal is by passed on each side, but the traffic is horrendous. Cumbria CC have long argued for a northern by pass to remove traffic that has to cross the town from west to east.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by orudge »

rhyds wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 19:44 The M6 through Cumbria is a road I doubt would be built today. Compared to what has come after it (A14 etc) its a massively overbuilt route hammering six lanes and a hard shoulder through the Lune gorge and around Carlisle. A more modern 80s/90s design would have been D2M at best, and while the traffic would probably flow OK-ish with two lanes, the elephant racing up the long inclines would be considerable.
Of course, the remaining sections of A74 (Cumberland Gap excepted) were upgraded to motorway in the 1990s and were indeed built as D3M, despite traffic levels arguably only justifying D2M. It would I expect feel a lot busier as D2M (as the section south of Glasgow does), and as with the section through the Lake District, I expect the gradients would have justified crawler lanes in places anyway.
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Gav »

150094747_10225606282774576_22407563602468907_n.jpg
some opf the options they considered along with the routes that utilised tunnels....
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Re: 50 years of the M6 in Cumbria

Post by Glenn A »

The M6 was the start of the major road improvements in Cumbria, whose road network was completely S2 until 1968. Its completion saw the start of upgrades to the A66, which really was a dire road 50 years ago,and the start of the Kendal western by pass.
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