Speed limits for bicycles

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Jim606
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Speed limits for bicycles

Post by Jim606 »

A recent article in Road CC. looked at the introduction of a speed limit of 8mph for bicycles on certain sections of canal towpaths by the Canal & River Trust https://road.cc/content/news/canal-and- ... mph-283873
The Canal & River Trust is installing a speed tracker will be trialled on canal towpaths in the West Midlands and Staffordshire to encourage cyclists on the shared use paths to slow down. The device will be set up so anyone cycling below 8mph will get a 'Thank You' message while faster cyclists will be told to '#StayKindSlowDown'. The automated signs will be trialled by the waterways and wellbeing charity for a month in Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Coventry, along with Stone in Staffordshire. A spokesperson said: "We're asking cyclists to be sensible and to think about where they are and the people around them".
Now this is all very interesting, as far as I am aware this is the first time any public body has introduced a specific speed limit for cyclists? I assume that cyclists have to adhere to National Speed Limits on UK roads. Not that many would go beyond 30mph, but it is possible downhill with a 'fast' bike? I am also not sure if any cyclist has ever been charged with a speeding offence? If this limit takes hold are we likely to see it introduced elsewhere?
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jervi
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by jervi »

Its all about common sense TBH.
If you are the only one about, then cycle as fast as you want to. When passing others, especially with not much space, then reduce speed to a level which is appropriate which I'd say is between 4 and 10 mph depending on clearance and if there are children/dogs that are likely to yeet themselves infront of you.

I think there are some places in the UK where cycles have a "speed limit", although enforcement of this is questionable and the worst that could happen is a slap on a wrist from a police officer, but no legal action could be taken from that alone.
If you are riding fast inappropriately, then that might constitute as careless / dangerous riding which is an actual offence. Speed alone does not constitute as that regardless if going above a "speed limit".
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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Jim606 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:05 A recent article in Road CC. looked at the introduction of a speed limit of 8mph for bicycles on certain sections of canal towpaths by the Canal & River Trust

Now this is all very interesting, as far as I am aware this is the first time any public body has introduced a specific speed limit for cyclists? I assume that cyclists have to adhere to National Speed Limits on UK roads. Not that many would go beyond 30mph, but it is possible downhill with a 'fast' bike? I am also not sure if any cyclist has ever been charged with a speeding offence? If this limit takes hold are we likely to see it introduced elsewhere?
Cycling offences and while speed limits only apply to motor vehicles police could take that into consideration when considering a prosecution. Maybe the Canal & River Trust could consider a private prosecution to see if the tow path is inside the legislation.
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Peter350
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by Peter350 »

I’m sure I have seen signs on Bournemouth seafront stating a 10mph limit for cycles, but in a blue rectangle rather than red ring so presumably advisory rather than mandatory.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by Alderpoint »

I can't see that this is a lgeally enforceable limit any more that the 10mph limit signs you see on entering (some) car parks. The linked article nor the original say what it is, but I guess it's those smiley/frowny face signs you see in some places.

It's worth noting that cyclists do not in general have a legal right to ride on towpaths, it is a concession by BWB and until 1/1/2009 required a permit, I guess if their "restriction" is not following the concession may be withdrawn.
Last edited by Alderpoint on Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by Herned »

As (most) bicycles don't have speedometer, how do they expect people to comply? Seems unenforceable in law to me
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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Jim606 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:05 A recent article in Road CC. looked at the introduction of a speed limit of 8mph for bicycles on certain sections of canal towpaths by the Canal & River Trust https://road.cc/content/news/canal-and- ... mph-283873
The Canal & River Trust is installing a speed tracker will be trialled on canal towpaths in the West Midlands and Staffordshire to encourage cyclists on the shared use paths to slow down. The device will be set up so anyone cycling below 8mph will get a 'Thank You' message while faster cyclists will be told to '#StayKindSlowDown'. The automated signs will be trialled by the waterways and wellbeing charity for a month in Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Coventry, along with Stone in Staffordshire. A spokesperson said: "We're asking cyclists to be sensible and to think about where they are and the people around them".
Now this is all very interesting, as far as I am aware this is the first time any public body has introduced a specific speed limit for cyclists? I assume that cyclists have to adhere to National Speed Limits on UK roads. Not that many would go beyond 30mph, but it is possible downhill with a 'fast' bike? I am also not sure if any cyclist has ever been charged with a speeding offence? If this limit takes hold are we likely to see it introduced elsewhere?
Speed limits do not apply to cyclists on public roads – primarily because bikes are not required to be fitted with a speedometer and so it would be impossible for a cyclist to know when they were breaking the speed limit. There is a separate offence of "cycling furiously" (IIRC), which – like "dangerous driving" – is based on a judgement call by the police officer on the ground rather than being a strict liability offence, but it is very rarely used.

However, I believe one or more of the London parks has speed limits on its roads that do apply to cyclists as well as motor traffic, although how that is enforced I don't know. Likewise, if the Canal & River Trust wants to impose speed limits for cyclists on its paths then it is able to do so, but it also has to recognise the limitations of that. It sounds like they are doing it as more of an advisory limit than a mandatory one, encouraging cyclists to keep their speed down. Although cycling at much less than 8mph can start to make it more difficult to balance and hold a steady line, so there's a bit of a balancing act (ahem) there to get it right.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by solocle »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:16
Jim606 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:05 A recent article in Road CC. looked at the introduction of a speed limit of 8mph for bicycles on certain sections of canal towpaths by the Canal & River Trust https://road.cc/content/news/canal-and- ... mph-283873
The Canal & River Trust is installing a speed tracker will be trialled on canal towpaths in the West Midlands and Staffordshire to encourage cyclists on the shared use paths to slow down. The device will be set up so anyone cycling below 8mph will get a 'Thank You' message while faster cyclists will be told to '#StayKindSlowDown'. The automated signs will be trialled by the waterways and wellbeing charity for a month in Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Coventry, along with Stone in Staffordshire. A spokesperson said: "We're asking cyclists to be sensible and to think about where they are and the people around them".
Now this is all very interesting, as far as I am aware this is the first time any public body has introduced a specific speed limit for cyclists? I assume that cyclists have to adhere to National Speed Limits on UK roads. Not that many would go beyond 30mph, but it is possible downhill with a 'fast' bike? I am also not sure if any cyclist has ever been charged with a speeding offence? If this limit takes hold are we likely to see it introduced elsewhere?
Speed limits do not apply to cyclists on public roads – primarily because bikes are not required to be fitted with a speedometer and so it would be impossible for a cyclist to know when they were breaking the speed limit. There is a separate offence of "cycling furiously" (IIRC), which – like "dangerous driving" – is based on a judgement call by the police officer on the ground rather than being a strict liability offence, but it is very rarely used.

However, I believe one or more of the London parks has speed limits on its roads that do apply to cyclists as well as motor traffic, although how that is enforced I don't know. Likewise, if the Canal & River Trust wants to impose speed limits for cyclists on its paths then it is able to do so, but it also has to recognise the limitations of that. It sounds like they are doing it as more of an advisory limit than a mandatory one, encouraging cyclists to keep their speed down. Although cycling at much less than 8mph can start to make it more difficult to balance and hold a steady line, so there's a bit of a balancing act (ahem) there to get it right.
Yep, no requirement to obey the limits. Royal parks used to be different, with their own bylaws, but those have been amended so often, and a 2016 policy statement by the royal parks says that they don't apply.

Down a steep hill? First time I did the descent into Otley, 30 mph speed limit sign halfway down... get to the bottom and check my max speed on my speedometer (I did not look at it at the time). 50.1 mph. I may have *ahem* increased that with a later run by 3 mph.

My all time top speed is 56 mph down the A3052 east of Lyme Regis... 60 limit, but close!

I believe a cyclist was prosecuted once for "cycling furiously" at 25 mph... in a 30 limit. Cambridge City Centre.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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Cycling offences and while speed limits only apply to motor vehicles police could take that into consideration when considering a prosecution. Maybe the Canal & River Trust could consider a private prosecution to see if the tow path is inside the legislation.
I didn't actually realise that speed limits apply to motorised vehicles only, when it is actually possible for a cyclist to go faster than a 20mph or 30mph limit in certain circumstances, especially down hill or with a finely tuned racing bike. This is the first time I've seen a limit advised via the use of designated signage and flashing 'slow down' warning signs, although as mentioned earlier how enforceable is this? I guess the advisory 8mph limit would apply to both electric and standard pedal bikes? My electric bike does have a mile/km speedo, so in theory I would have no excuse for 'unknowingly' breaking to limit?

This incident on CS3 in London helps illustrate some of the issues involved with designated cycleways. There is no centreline demarcation and this section is too narrow at less than 3m? A safety assessor might look at introducing a speed limit of say 15.5mph / 25km if crashes such as this continue at such a location? The Canal & River Trust obviously thought it necessary to introduce the 8mph limit where they saw problems occurring.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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As mentioned, speed limits in the strict liability sense do not apply to bicycles, and I don't really see the point of making them do so. Not only is there no requirement for cyclists to have speedometers, but also there is no requirement for such speedometers as are used by some cyclists, whether mechanically driven on the bicycle or GPS-based on watches, to be calibrated or otherwise demonstrably within the legal tolerances. None of that stops some countries applying the same speed limits to bikes as to motor traffic - Sweden does this - but I've never come across someone actually being prosecuted for speeding specifically here, and I don't really see what the point is.

Antisocial behaviour by cyclists around pedestrians is not purely or even mainly a question of speed, if you define speed as being above or below a numerical threshold. Inappropriate speed often plays a part, but that has little to do with a blanket threshold. Personally I would suggest that if conflicts are frequent and serious enough to warrant this kind of intervention, it would be better to either (a) if possible, affordable and aesthetically acceptable, widen the route (if necessary) and mark it so cycles and pedestrians are separate, or (b) if not possible etc., ban cycle traffic there at peak pedestrian usage times. After all, we are talking about routes which in the normal course of things are public footpaths, and therefore not open to cyclists. To be frank, imposing an 8 mph speed limit is basically a passive-aggressive way of telling cyclists to sling their hook - it is so far below a typical cycling speed on the flat that few cyclists would choose to use that route in a law-abiding fashion. Either they will use it and break the speed limit, or they'll go elsewhere.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by Helvellyn »

Is anything automated all that likely to be able to reliably identify a cyclist? Runners might be going faster than 8 mph. Quite a lot of cyclists going faster than that along the towpath next to my house; they're only an issue if they don't behave sensibly when passing people (which might not even involve slowing down at all - if I see them coming and I can step out of the way well enough it's fine if they don't slow down at all).
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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Antisocial behaviour by cyclists around pedestrians is not purely or even mainly a question of speed, if you define speed as being above or below a numerical threshold. Inappropriate speed often plays a part, but that has little to do with a blanket threshold. Personally I would suggest that if conflicts are frequent and serious enough to warrant this kind of intervention, it would be better to either (a) if possible, affordable and aesthetically acceptable, widen the route (if necessary) and mark it so cycles and pedestrians are separate, or (b) if not possible etc., ban cycle traffic there at peak pedestrian usage times. After all, we are talking about routes which in the normal course of things are public footpaths, and therefore not open to cyclists. To be frank, imposing an 8 mph speed limit is basically a passive-aggressive way of telling cyclists to sling their hook - it is so far below a typical cycling speed on the flat that few cyclists would choose to use that route in a law-abiding fashion. Either they will use it and break the speed limit, or they'll go elsewhere.

Very interesting points, a reply to the Road CC article 'the little onion' wrote the following insightful comments;
the little onion | 538 posts | 2 weeks ago

Here in West Yorkshire, Canal and Rivers Trust have received about 10 million pounds in the last 8 or so years from the City Connect DfT project. This money has been spent 'upgrading' the towpaths on various canals around towns and cities (Leeds-Liverpool canal, Huddersfield canal etc) with the explicit aim, amongst other things, of increasing commuting cycling - getting people out of their cars and cycling to work on the canal. Local cycle campaigns explicitly asked whether there would be a speed limit, and were told there wouldn't be.

The delivery was woefully inadequate (deliberately so, in my opinion) for cyclists, and not very family/disability friendly - narrow A-frames, speedbumps, loose gravel and hard-packed earth surfaces, which are a pain on a bike as well as in a recumbent, wheelchair or pram. I maintain that CRT create a façade that they want cyclists on towpaths when it comes to applying for government grants, then this façade quickly disappears when the money is spent. I'm not in a position to judge whether their actions are legal or not, but I would certainly consider their actions immoral. I'm actually totally fine with them putting restrictions on cyclists on busy canals, but it is total hypocrisy on their part to also claim millions of pounds of funding designated for cycling infrastructure. https://road.cc/content/news/canal-and- ... mph-283873
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by solocle »

Jim606 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 14:05
Antisocial behaviour by cyclists around pedestrians is not purely or even mainly a question of speed, if you define speed as being above or below a numerical threshold. Inappropriate speed often plays a part, but that has little to do with a blanket threshold. Personally I would suggest that if conflicts are frequent and serious enough to warrant this kind of intervention, it would be better to either (a) if possible, affordable and aesthetically acceptable, widen the route (if necessary) and mark it so cycles and pedestrians are separate, or (b) if not possible etc., ban cycle traffic there at peak pedestrian usage times. After all, we are talking about routes which in the normal course of things are public footpaths, and therefore not open to cyclists. To be frank, imposing an 8 mph speed limit is basically a passive-aggressive way of telling cyclists to sling their hook - it is so far below a typical cycling speed on the flat that few cyclists would choose to use that route in a law-abiding fashion. Either they will use it and break the speed limit, or they'll go elsewhere.

Very interesting points, a reply to the Road CC article 'the little onion' wrote the following insightful comments;
the little onion | 538 posts | 2 weeks ago

Here in West Yorkshire, Canal and Rivers Trust have received about 10 million pounds in the last 8 or so years from the City Connect DfT project. This money has been spent 'upgrading' the towpaths on various canals around towns and cities (Leeds-Liverpool canal, Huddersfield canal etc) with the explicit aim, amongst other things, of increasing commuting cycling - getting people out of their cars and cycling to work on the canal. Local cycle campaigns explicitly asked whether there would be a speed limit, and were told there wouldn't be.

The delivery was woefully inadequate (deliberately so, in my opinion) for cyclists, and not very family/disability friendly - narrow A-frames, speedbumps, loose gravel and hard-packed earth surfaces, which are a pain on a bike as well as in a recumbent, wheelchair or pram. I maintain that CRT create a façade that they want cyclists on towpaths when it comes to applying for government grants, then this façade quickly disappears when the money is spent. I'm not in a position to judge whether their actions are legal or not, but I would certainly consider their actions immoral. I'm actually totally fine with them putting restrictions on cyclists on busy canals, but it is total hypocrisy on their part to also claim millions of pounds of funding designated for cycling infrastructure. https://road.cc/content/news/canal-and- ... mph-283873
Yep. I remember an incident on the Leeds-Liverpool canal. The only crash I've had involving others where I was at fault. Downhill with signs saying "danger - speed bumps". Naturally, I didn't slow down at all, given that I could see a clear path ahead, and could take the speed bumps at 30 mph. The pedestrians, however, seemed to appear from nowhere... in my ever so slight defence, all the indication was that the speed bumps themselves were the hazard, instead of there being any form of hidden entrance, although I can't rule out a saccade.

After that, I stuck to the A65, and it's definitely contributed to my almost inevitable refusal to use shared paths of any form.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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Jim606 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:44 This incident on CS3 in London helps illustrate some of the issues involved with designated cycleways. There is no centreline demarcation and this section is too narrow at less than 3m? A safety assessor might look at introducing a speed limit of say 15.5mph / 25km if crashes such as this continue at such a location? The Canal & River Trust obviously thought it necessary to introduce the 8mph limit where they saw problems occurring.
Until I saw an upside-down cycle mark on the carriageway half a second before the crash I saw nothing to tell me to expect oncoming traffic there. I would naturally expect such traffic to be on the other carriageway, where traffic is going the other way.

The natural structure of roads is that progressing from the centre line you have traffic travelling progressively slower towards the left, all going in the same direction. The traffic going in the opposite direction is at the other side of the traffic going in this direction. There you've got contraflow traffic flowing between "slowest lane" and "next fastest lane". I wouldn't be saying "slow down", I'd be saying "get on the other side of the bloody road!"
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by dprior7770 »

I managed 38mph (smartwatch indicated) on my bike down Westwood Hill in Sydenham (London) a few days ago at the dead of night.

There is a 20mph camera midway down which didn't trigger when I smashed through its field of vision.

This is one of those London roads where the safe prevailing speed of traffic is 30mph (apart from past the camera, or the school during peak hours) but Lewisham Council has arbitrarily slapped a 20 limit on it, which is ignored universally.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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jgharston wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 17:27 The natural structure of roads is that progressing from the centre line you have traffic travelling progressively slower towards the left, all going in the same direction. The traffic going in the opposite direction is at the other side of the traffic going in this direction. There you've got contraflow traffic flowing between "slowest lane" and "next fastest lane". I wouldn't be saying "slow down", I'd be saying "get on the other side of the bloody road!"
This is a common problem IME. In Sweden you generally either get one cyclepath on one side of the motor road only, where it is marked and/or signed as two-way, or one on each side, intended to be one-way in the same direction as the traffic alongside. The latter are generally narrower. They are generally reasonably well signed (in this regard; direction signage sucks), especially in denser urban areas where there are more cyclists and pedestrians competing for the same space. But even so, it's not unusual to meet people cycling against the traffic because they can't be bothered to cross the road and do it properly. They also then risk causing further problems because when they get to the end (or the beginning) of the cycle path, there is no obvious way for them to continue: they must either cycle on the left on the road against the traffic (not advisable) or cycle on the pavement (neither advisable nor legal).

Enforcement of anything other than obvious drunkenness is practically nil here as it is in the UK, but any general complaints about cyclist behaviour in e.g. the local paper or on FB pages always come down to speed. I'm convinced, from seeing the results of people causing conflict while cycling, that speed plays a very small role in the problem, especially in dense urban environments where no-one is going very fast anyway. (It's a different matter on disused railways and similar.) Rather, it's these other ignorant and lazy behaviours such as cycling the wrong way, cycling on pedestrian-only areas, not obeying priorities, pedestrian crossings and red lights, and cycling while on the phone that are the problem.

But from city hall down to schoolkids, we've all had it dinned into us that "speed kills" and that speed is the only thing that matters. When you're talking about over a tonne of metal with the inertia to match, there is some justification for this, hence 20 mph limits, though not to the exclusion of everything else. But with cyclists, speed really isn't the problem. More or less anything else that an incompetent, aggressive or inattentive cyclist may do is more important than their speed to the safety of pedestrians and other cyclists.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

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dprior7770 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 18:28 I managed 38mph (smartwatch indicated) on my bike down Westwood Hill in Sydenham (London) a few days ago at the dead of night.

There is a 20mph camera midway down which didn't trigger when I smashed through its field of vision.

This is one of those London roads where the safe prevailing speed of traffic is 30mph (apart from past the camera, or the school during peak hours) but Lewisham Council has arbitrarily slapped a 20 limit on it, which is ignored universally.
As are many 20 limits.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by solocle »

Never flashed a camera, despite my best efforts with Cumnor Hill descending into Oxford (camera on a short dual carriageway just after the 40 limit drops to 30, I'd often be doing closer to 40). If someone pulled out from the left, you just moved into the right lane and overtook them :twisted:

My latest bit of speeding was about an hour ago.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by fras »

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.
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Re: Speed limits for bicycles

Post by Helvellyn »

fras wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 22:37 How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.
Speed limits could be mandated to allow cycling on the road (although I note that this started off about canal towpaths). They shouldn't be, but these days you can get away with forcing anything if you use say "safety" and trot out something about thinking of others and saying it's not much effort to fit one.
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