Speed limits for bicycles

[FosseWay]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

As I said above, it is perfectly possible to point a radar gun or speed camera at a cyclist and take it from there, and some countries do (theoretically) do this. There are a number of possible arguments against a strict liability offence of speeding for bicycles, but the fact that bicycles don't legally have to have speedometers is one of the weaker ones, tbh. If where you live has such a law and you are worried about accidentally not complying, get a speedo. I would have thought a much more persuasive argument against is that it just won't achieve anything, while using resources and winding up a section of the travelling public that we as a society are trying to support and encourage. Bearing in mind that remote monitoring and fining as with motor speed cameras isn't possible with cyclists, in specific locations where antisocial cycling is a problem, you'll get more bang for your buck if you have police stopping dangerous cyclists and charging them with cycling dangerously or whatever the wording is. Apart from anything else, the fines are likely to be higher than anything set up to be equivalent to speeding in a car.

[Big L]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

How can you enforce drink driving limits? Cars dont have alcohol testers.

[Fenlander]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

So if I remove the speedo from my car then the speed limits won’t apply to me?

[marconaf]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

How can you enforce drink driving limits? Cars dont have alcohol testers.

But you do when you drink alcohol and drive which you arent supposed to do. As well as a binary 1/0 indication of did I drink/didnt I drink, you know if it was 1,2 to n drinks.

A cyclist is doing what they are supposed to be doing, few have any idea of the numbers involved and no real way of assessing that other than “cars are going faster than me” which is of no benefit on a non car route.

[A303Chris]

Fastest I have gone on a bike is 58mph coming down from Alpe d'Huez via Villard-Reculas after the stage of the Tour-de-France in 2018.

Fastest here is 49mph coming down Remenham Hill into Henley on the A4130. I get up to 40mph on other roads but don't go much faster given the poor state of many of our roads.

[trickstat]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

How can you enforce drink driving limits? Cars dont have alcohol testers.

But you do when you drink alcohol and drive which you arent supposed to do. As well as a binary 1/0 indication of did I drink/didnt I drink, you know if it was 1,2 to n drinks.

A cyclist is doing what they are supposed to be doing, few have any idea of the numbers involved and no real way of assessing that other than “cars are going faster than me” which is of no benefit on a non car route.

Agreed, and there are also broad parameters with drinking. Someone who drinks 2 bottles of vodka between 8 and 11pm will surely be well over the limit at 7am, while another who had half a pint 24 hours ago will be way under it.

[Fenlander]

Fastest I have gone on a bike is 58mph coming down from Alpe d'Huez via Villard-Reculas after the stage of the Tour-de-France in 2018.

Fastest here is 49mph coming down Remenham Hill into Henley on the A4130. I get up to 40mph on other roads but don't go much faster given the poor state of many of our roads.

How easy can you tell you’re getting near 20/30/40? I’m a mere occasional recreational cyclist and I’m happy with the kids at 10-15 but all those numbers are from crunching Strava afterwards rather than a live display.
Put me on a set of skis however and I’ve a pretty good idea of my live speed from a combination of factors and a bit of correlation from GPS & actual times speed traps. I’m assuming as an experienced cyclist you get the same sort of feel?

[solocle]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

So if I remove the speedo from my car then the speed limits won’t apply to me?

There are in fact some ancient cars without speedometers, the limits still apply.

But such an offence would be pointless. How many motorists speed, and how often do they get caught? And how much of that is by automated cameras, rather than traffic police?

For instance, when cycling through a pedestrian zone, maybe an hour before cycling was allowed under the PSPO (Cornmarket St, Oxford) - I once got pulled up about it by a council jobsworth. I was riding at 5 mph, so jogging pace, rather than walking in road shoes and risking slipping. To highlight the absurdity of this, somebody came through at about 15 mph, and it was I that got told of instead! But council jobbie couldn't run fast enough to catch that guy, could he?

Fastest I have gone on a bike is 58mph coming down from Alpe d'Huez via Villard-Reculas after the stage of the Tour-de-France in 2018.

Fastest here is 49mph coming down Remenham Hill into Henley on the A4130. I get up to 40mph on other roads but don't go much faster given the poor state of many of our roads.

How easy can you tell you’re getting near 20/30/40? I’m a mere occasional recreational cyclist and I’m happy with the kids at 10-15 but all those numbers are from crunching Strava afterwards rather than a live display.
Put me on a set of skis however and I’ve a pretty good idea of my live speed from a combination of factors and a bit of correlation from GPS & actual times speed traps. I’m assuming as an experienced cyclist you get the same sort of feel?

Yeah, you can judge it by feel, but of course there's some inaccuracy. E.g. riding down the C13 to Melbury Abbas, which has a 40 limit, I thought I was doing a smidge over 50... it was actually 48. I hit the 20 limit for Melbury itself at 35, before slowing down to about 20 mph, which was necessary due to the road geometry.

[Chris Bertram]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

So if I remove the speedo from my car then the speed limits won’t apply to me?

Remove the speedo and you'll fail the MOT. It's one of very few instruments that are compulsory to have in working order.

[fras]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

So if I remove the speedo from my car then the speed limits won’t apply to me?

It is a legal requirement to have a working and accurate speedometer in your car, so you would have broken the law and would be breaking it every time you drove anywhere. OK, it is permitted to over-indicate the actual speed by about 10% but not under-indicate.

[FosseWay]

How easy can you tell you’re getting near 20/30/40? I’m a mere occasional recreational cyclist and I’m happy with the kids at 10-15 but all those numbers are from crunching Strava afterwards rather than a live display.

The faster I go the less accurate I am at estimating my speed (and I tend to disproportionately overestimate it, as well). But at fairly normal speeds, say up to 35 km/h, I can generally use some form of reference point: how it feels compared to a known speed (observed on my watch in real time), how fast I'm pedalling for the gear I'm in, what the cars (if any) are doing, and so on.

I did actually get pulled over by the police in Sheffield when I was a lad because they clocked me doing 48 through the then brand-new 30 limit at the crossroads at Ringinglow on the Hathersage road. They didn't accuse me of "speeding" but instead said that I was going a bit fast for the conditions and could I dial it back a bit. Looking back, I wonder whether either their equipment was faulty or they were economical with the truth for effect, because only once since I've had the means to measure my speed in real time have I come even close to that - I got 70 km/h (bang on the speed limit, as it happens) on a long straight near where I now live, and that has a much better surface than the Ringinglow road has.

[Vierwielen]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

There is another side to speed limits. Suppose that a cyclist who is travelling at speed hits and seriously injures a pedestrian, who can the pedestrian sue. If there is a speed limit and it can be shown that the cyclist was exceeding that speed limit, the cyclist could be liable and since insurance is not compulsory, it could be very expensive for the cyclist.

[Helvellyn]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

There is another side to speed limits. Suppose that a cyclist who is travelling at speed hits and seriously injures a pedestrian, who can the pedestrian sue. If there is a speed limit and it can be shown that the cyclist was exceeding that speed limit, the cyclist could be liable and since insurance is not compulsory, it could be very expensive for the cyclist.

It could be anyway if the cyclist was being reckless.

[solocle]

How easy can you tell you’re getting near 20/30/40? I’m a mere occasional recreational cyclist and I’m happy with the kids at 10-15 but all those numbers are from crunching Strava afterwards rather than a live display.

The faster I go the less accurate I am at estimating my speed (and I tend to disproportionately overestimate it, as well). But at fairly normal speeds, say up to 35 km/h, I can generally use some form of reference point: how it feels compared to a known speed (observed on my watch in real time), how fast I'm pedalling for the gear I'm in, what the cars (if any) are doing, and so on.

I did actually get pulled over by the police in Sheffield when I was a lad because they clocked me doing 48 through the then brand-new 30 limit at the crossroads at Ringinglow on the Hathersage road. They didn't accuse me of "speeding" but instead said that I was going a bit fast for the conditions and could I dial it back a bit. Looking back, I wonder whether either their equipment was faulty or they were economical with the truth for effect, because only once since I've had the means to measure my speed in real time have I come even close to that - I got 70 km/h (bang on the speed limit, as it happens) on a long straight near where I now live, and that has a much better surface than the Ringinglow road has.

Oh hey, a piece of road I've done. At the crossroads I presume you mean, I was doing 35 mph. Got up to 46 on the next bit towards Fulwood.

[Vierwielen]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

There is another side to speed limits. Suppose that a cyclist who is travelling at speed hits and seriously injures a pedestrian, who can the pedestrian sue. If there is a speed limit and it can be shown that the cyclist was exceeding that speed limit, the cyclist could be liable and since insurance is not compulsory, it could be very expensive for the cyclist.

It could be anyway if the cyclist was being reckless.

Cycling at over the speed limit lowers the bar for what constitutes being reckless.

[marconaf]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

There is another side to speed limits. Suppose that a cyclist who is travelling at speed hits and seriously injures a pedestrian, who can the pedestrian sue. If there is a speed limit and it can be shown that the cyclist was exceeding that speed limit, the cyclist could be liable and since insurance is not compulsory, it could be very expensive for the cyclist.

How could “it be shown”?

To hit a pedestrian and be liable implies the cyclist is in a pedestrian area, ie pavement although I suppose a ped already crossing a side road applies as it would a car to priority.

But unlike a car where analysis of tyre marks and car computer data can show that, what evidence is there?

The chances of a speed trap being accurate for a cyclist (legally binding) seem remote as are they designed/calibrated around that and what are the odds they hit a ped in one?

All in all it seems impossible to prove. Random CCTV coverage maybe and analysis of frame rate/movement but if we’re talking injury compensation numbers, just how accurate is that cctv time stamp and frame data and lots of scope with the trigonometry to put doubt in there.

All in all, this shows just how daft the “put cyclists on pavements” with peds is.

As cycling grows this disconnect worsens.

Pedestrian walks at 2-4 mph (normal to fast)
Cyclist moving at 10-20 (normal to fast.

5x speed differential ped to cyclist.

Car drives at 30-40 (urban).

3x speed differential cyclist to car. Noting cyclist more likely to be 15-20 on a road vs “shared space” so actually more like 2x differential.

On that basis, cyclists belong with cars…

Granted impact is kientic energy so mass fabours being with ped, but the speed differential is critical to whether the accident happens at all, and cyclist/cars have much better situational awareness vs peds (given travelling faster and the expectation if having to watch out constantly).

Or do it properly like Europe and segregate all 3. We should have been doing that in all new build estates and rebuilt areas for the last 40 years. Yet sitting in one right now its a “shared space” pavement that is no different to a pure ped pavement.

[Al__S]

The one example I can think of speed of an accurate speed for a cyclist involved in a collision being mentioned was the sad one of the lad on a fixie who hit and killed a woman in London.
he was in a 20mph zone... doing 18mph.
20 is fairly easy for a reasonably fit person on a road or touring bike on flat ground, as a cruising speed. I do have a GPS head unit, and am absolutely not surprised how often I'm overtaken (or have drivers following aggressively closely and even honking) when I'm doing 20 in 20 zones.

Ultimately there's plenty of evidence regarding the safety benefits of speed limits (including 20) for motor vehicles. Speed limits only ever happened because there was a problem that had been identified.

There's possibly a problem on tow paths, granted. Tow paths are generally pretty rubbish for cycle routes- they're too narrow and have a nasty drop on one side. People cycle on them because they're allowed to and because they feel chased off the road network by poor design and aggressive motorists. But there are issues of enforcement and expectation of knowing your speed- if the proposed limit is 8mph that's VERY low.
And as for on the roads?

[Alderpoint]

Speed limits only ever happened because there was a problem that had been identified.

Oh that's a hilarious one!

[FosseWay]

How on earth can a speed limit for cyclists be enforced ! They have no speedometer. The only thing I suppose would be to put up some speed indicators in the cycle lanes.

There is another side to speed limits. Suppose that a cyclist who is travelling at speed hits and seriously injures a pedestrian, who can the pedestrian sue. If there is a speed limit and it can be shown that the cyclist was exceeding that speed limit, the cyclist could be liable and since insurance is not compulsory, it could be very expensive for the cyclist.

It could be anyway if the cyclist was being reckless.

Exactly. And excessive speed can be part of recklessness, but the issue here is that the speed limit you see in the roundel has been decided with motor traffic, principally vehicles with four wheels that are getting on for 2 metres wide and 4+ long and weigh 1.5 tonnes or more, in mind. A rather narrow stretch where a car needs to slow down to avoid either encroaching on the pedestrian area or hitting oncoming traffic may well be completely unexceptional at 20+ on two wheels. Conversely, on a steep and bendy descent where you've also got pedestrians potentially crossing the road, I'd trust modern car brakes over cycle brakes any day - here 30 may well be OK in a car but sure as heck isn't on a bike.

It's what you choose to do in either of those situations that defines whether you're being reckless, not what's written in a roundel.

[KeithW]

Ultimately there's plenty of evidence regarding the safety benefits of speed limits (including 20) for motor vehicles. Speed limits only ever happened because there was a problem that had been identified.

The original speed limit consisted of a man walking in front of a motor vehicle carrying a red flag, that was just down to fear of the new.

Speed limits were actually abolished in 1931, the surge in fatalities that resulted made their reintroduction inevitable. By 1939 the fatality rate was 4 times the modern level with a small fraction of the number of vehicles on the road.

The reality is the number of people killed or seriously injured by cyclists is negligible however cyclists are far more likely to be killed than pedestrians. The only group of road users who are more vulnerable are motorcyclists. There is little if anything to be gained by making cyclists fit speedometers except to impose an unnecessary bureaucratic burden.