The Dutch influence on UK road design

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marconaf
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by marconaf »

Herned wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 14:55
marconaf wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:55 “Removing space from motorised traffic” isnt anyones objective is it?
Yes, it needs to be, in many places provision of decent cycling and walking infrastructure is only possible by removing space from other road users - most major roads in cities are going to end up with the balance of space changed between motorised users and cyclists/pedestrians
Ahh, the beggar my neighbour approach.

It may be your objective, but it seems a litte premature to believe as you do, especially as post lockdown cycling boom (itself barely noticable, and I live in a town centre), it seems even all the pop up stuff has already gone.

So history doesnt appear to be going in this direction.

Meanwhile the Dutch (and Germans) seem to manage both well.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Enceladus »

Urban traffic calming measures, such as chicanes, elongated speed bumps (tile or brick) and narrowing the road part of streets.

This is the “Woonerf” concept - pioneered by the Dutch in Amsterdam in the early to mid 1960s. I remember learning this in university back in the mid 1990s, in the transportation module of my Geography degree course. :)

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Just a gentle SMT prod to try and keep things on topic... "push bikes v cars" discussion could belong elsewhere if it isn't related to the design of cycleways, etc.

One Dutch innovation that I'd like to see more of is the turbo roundabouts. The back roads coming out of Hoek van Holland seemed to be full of them: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.972731, ... a=!3m1!1e3

They seem to work well, unless you wish to do a U-turn. There's also multi lane ones on the main roads, though they're often signalised.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Debaser »

ravenbluemoon wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 22:07
One Dutch innovation that I'd like to see more of is the turbo roundabouts. The back roads coming out of Hoek van Holland seemed to be full of them: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.972731, ... a=!3m1!1e3

They seem to work well, unless you wish to do a U-turn. There's also multi lane ones on the main roads, though they're often signalised.
Unfortunately Lembit Opik (yes, that one), in his post as Director of Communications & Public Affairs for the Motorcycle Action Group was very vocal in opposing the one example of a turbo that was meant to be put in in Bedford (UK motorcyclists presumably not being as skilful as Dutch ones), resulting in the botch job that now exists.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by ais523 »

Herned wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 22:29
marconaf wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 22:21 That seems a strawman. Local Authorities cylcing provision is near uniformly awful, but I’m not aware they’ve ever made it so in order to avoid delaying car drivers! Indeed the converse is true, most cycle lanes now do come at the expense of other road (and pavement) users.
Of course they do, that's why at least 75% of cycle lanes are either repurposed pavements, just done by chucking a few signs on lampposts, or a white line painted down the middle. These universally insist that cyclists give way, often with "cyclists dismount" signs, at every single side street, despite it being explicitly against the rules of the Highway Code.

A tiny, tiny percentage of cycle lanes involve removing space from motorised traffic
One interesting trend I've seen in Birmingham recently is shifting space from cars to buses, even on some of the major radial A-roads. Because cyclists can use the bus lane too, this is effectively introducing new cycle infrastructure in a different way from the usual, and is close to a direct example of removing space from "normal" motorised traffic.

For cyclists, having to share the road with buses probably isn't ideal, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were preferable to sharing a path with pedestrians or a carriageway with cars in general. The road markings seem to try to be giving the cyclists enough space to overtake stopped buses without conflicting with the traffic in the remaining general-use vehicle lanes, although I'm not sure how well that works in practice – on the A38 between Northfield and Selly Oak the bus+cycle lane is considerably wider than the everything-else lane, though, meaning that some thought has been put into the allocation. Here's an example of the sort of thing I mean; the lane on the left is dedicated for cyclists, buses, motorbikes and taxis, and everything else has to use the lane on the right (and the lane of the left is wide enough for a cyclist to overtake a bus or vice versa). Here's what it looks like when it comes to a bus stop – cycles have an area at the far left marked out for them, but are encouraged to use the entire width of the bus lane if necessary to overtake something.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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ais523 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:37
Herned wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 22:29
marconaf wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 22:21 That seems a strawman. Local Authorities cylcing provision is near uniformly awful, but I’m not aware they’ve ever made it so in order to avoid delaying car drivers! Indeed the converse is true, most cycle lanes now do come at the expense of other road (and pavement) users.
Of course they do, that's why at least 75% of cycle lanes are either repurposed pavements, just done by chucking a few signs on lampposts, or a white line painted down the middle. These universally insist that cyclists give way, often with "cyclists dismount" signs, at every single side street, despite it being explicitly against the rules of the Highway Code.

A tiny, tiny percentage of cycle lanes involve removing space from motorised traffic
One interesting trend I've seen in Birmingham recently is shifting space from cars to buses, even on some of the major radial A-roads. Because cyclists can use the bus lane too, this is effectively introducing new cycle infrastructure in a different way from the usual, and is close to a direct example of removing space from "normal" motorised traffic.

For cyclists, having to share the road with buses probably isn't ideal, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were preferable to sharing a path with pedestrians or a carriageway with cars in general. The road markings seem to try to be giving the cyclists enough space to overtake stopped buses without conflicting with the traffic in the remaining general-use vehicle lanes, although I'm not sure how well that works in practice – on the A38 between Northfield and Selly Oak the bus+cycle lane is considerably wider than the everything-else lane, though, meaning that some thought has been put into the allocation. Here's an example of the sort of thing I mean; the lane on the left is dedicated for cyclists, buses, motorbikes and taxis, and everything else has to use the lane on the right (and the lane of the left is wide enough for a cyclist to overtake a bus or vice versa). Here's what it looks like when it comes to a bus stop – cycles have an area at the far left marked out for them, but are encouraged to use the entire width of the bus lane if necessary to overtake something.
Yes, if buses and cyclists do have to mix then it's best to give them a 4.5m wide bus lane to do it in. In the example you've linked the carriageway has been reallocated so that the general traffic lane is probably 3m or 3.2m wide, to allow the bus lane the extra width.

The next step up is to keep the cyclists on the left with a bus stop bypass; and then segregating the lanes and facilities becomes an easier thing.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Bryn666 »

I thought the Bristol Road bus lanes had been scrapped already.

Seems a bit bizarre given they scrapped them just as the CAZ came in. You either want to deter driving or you don't.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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ChrisH wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 14:14 The next step up is to keep the cyclists on the left with a bus stop bypass; and then segregating the lanes and facilities becomes an easier thing.
Is a bus stop bypass the best solution though? Should the cyclists not overtake the stationary bus itself - I think that the issue witha bus stop bypass is that it puts really vulnerable road users into unsignalised direct conflict with cyclists - unless you make the cyclist give way.... but if you do that then you risk the cyclist moving himself into the road anyway and conflicting with the cars...
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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c2R wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:18
ChrisH wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 14:14 The next step up is to keep the cyclists on the left with a bus stop bypass; and then segregating the lanes and facilities becomes an easier thing.
Is a bus stop bypass the best solution though? Should the cyclists not overtake the stationary bus itself - I think that the issue witha bus stop bypass is that it puts really vulnerable road users into unsignalised direct conflict with cyclists - unless you make the cyclist give way.... but if you do that then you risk the cyclist moving himself into the road anyway and conflicting with the cars...
You're thinking of the problematic Copenhagen bus stop type, a proper bus stop bypass has zebra crossings these days - not the informal shared space that London dabbled with and saw the usual tedious MAMIL screaming at everyone to get out the way (MAMILs tend to be the Audi drivers of the cycle world in my experience...).

Here's an example planned for Cardiff: https://keepingcardiffmoving.co.uk/city ... -bypasses/
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by ChrisH »

c2R wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:18
ChrisH wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 14:14 The next step up is to keep the cyclists on the left with a bus stop bypass; and then segregating the lanes and facilities becomes an easier thing.
Is a bus stop bypass the best solution though? Should the cyclists not overtake the stationary bus itself - I think that the issue witha bus stop bypass is that it puts really vulnerable road users into unsignalised direct conflict with cyclists - unless you make the cyclist give way.... but if you do that then you risk the cyclist moving himself into the road anyway and conflicting with the cars...
Every risk assessment that's been done suggests that the risks from cyclist-pedestrian interaction are far lower than cyclist-motor vehicle. The Dutch "sustainable safety" approach seeks to separate objects by mass and velocity, i.e. if cyclists have to mix with anyone it should be with pedestrians.

And in reality the first installations in London - which were much criticised by RNIB and others - ended up causing no recorded issues at all.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by ABB125 »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:15 I thought the Bristol Road bus lanes had been scrapped already.

Seems a bit bizarre given they scrapped them just as the CAZ came in. You either want to deter driving or you don't.
Correct. The bus lanes on the A38 between Selly Oak and Northfield are no longer (apart from a bit where the Selly Oak bypass starts). I must admit, I was quite surprised too...
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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People in England usually have the Netherlands in mind as some kind of transport utopia because they imagine that cycling replaces car journeys. In fact that is not the case. Car use is almost identical. The main difference is that, by comparison with England, there is very little use of walking and public transport for intra-city journeys.

http://www.transportparadise.co.uk/2014 ... al-splits/
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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jackal wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:15 People in England usually have the Netherlands in mind as some kind of transport utopia because they imagine that cycling replaces car journeys. In fact that is not the case. Car use is almost identical. The main difference is that, by comparison with England, there is very little use of walking and public transport for intra-city journeys.

http://www.transportparadise.co.uk/2014 ... al-splits/
Hmm, how often do we hear the claim that every person on a bicycle means one less car on the road? :scratchchin:
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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ChrisH wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:21 Every risk assessment that's been done suggests that the risks from cyclist-pedestrian interaction are far lower than cyclist-motor vehicle. The Dutch "sustainable safety" approach seeks to separate objects by mass and velocity, i.e. if cyclists have to mix with anyone it should be with pedestrians.
That's as may be, but I wonder whether the full range of unintended consequences has been looked at. I can absolutely accept the point that the risk of death or serious injury to the cyclist is lower if they collide with a pedestrian than with a car (though presumably the risk of KSI to pedestrians, while still small, is greater if they are expected to interact with more cyclists). But people's risk and irritation assessments don't necessarily tie in with this. If cyclists experience a lot of conflict with pedestrians, whether it's minor collisions, near misses or a bit of verbal, they will investigate other alternatives. That may be cycling on the road, or it may just be not cycling.

I'd also want to know exactly how the risk assessment has been conducted. It's pretty obvious that the severity part is going to be worse with car-on-bike collisions than bike-on-pedestrian ones. But it's far from clear IME that the likelihood is greater. In fact, I would put the likelihood of a problem as considerably higher regarding pedestrians than any form of motor vehicle, even private hires. However poor people's observational skills are when driving, they are streets better than the same people's observational skills when walking about. To what extent has the risk assessment not actually assessed risk, but rather severity?
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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FosseWay wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 16:40
ChrisH wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:21 Every risk assessment that's been done suggests that the risks from cyclist-pedestrian interaction are far lower than cyclist-motor vehicle. The Dutch "sustainable safety" approach seeks to separate objects by mass and velocity, i.e. if cyclists have to mix with anyone it should be with pedestrians.
That's as may be, but I wonder whether the full range of unintended consequences has been looked at. I can absolutely accept the point that the risk of death or serious injury to the cyclist is lower if they collide with a pedestrian than with a car (though presumably the risk of KSI to pedestrians, while still small, is greater if they are expected to interact with more cyclists). But people's risk and irritation assessments don't necessarily tie in with this. If cyclists experience a lot of conflict with pedestrians, whether it's minor collisions, near misses or a bit of verbal, they will investigate other alternatives. That may be cycling on the road, or it may just be not cycling.

I'd also want to know exactly how the risk assessment has been conducted. It's pretty obvious that the severity part is going to be worse with car-on-bike collisions than bike-on-pedestrian ones. But it's far from clear IME that the likelihood is greater. In fact, I would put the likelihood of a problem as considerably higher regarding pedestrians than any form of motor vehicle, even private hires. However poor people's observational skills are when driving, they are streets better than the same people's observational skills when walking about. To what extent has the risk assessment not actually assessed risk, but rather severity?
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by B1040 »

Come September, I get to experience floating bus stops (bus stop bypass) on Histon Road in Cambridge.
They're quiet bus stops, and I'm unlikely to encounter disembarking passengers at all. I do feel that pedestrians generally are less alert for cyclists than motor vehicles, and suspect that I'll have to slow for the bus stops.
That said, before the started the work, Histon Road inbound in the mornings was never head down, fast as I like travel.
I may well prefer the bus lane, and if I pause behind a bus, as I often did before, that may well reduce conflict.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:15Seems a bit bizarre given they scrapped them just as the CAZ came in. You either want to deter driving or you don't.
The purpose of the CAZ isn't to deter driving, it's to reduce air pollution in a specific area of Birmingham for which air pollution is already over the legal limits.

A bus lane that's outside the zone in question is unlikely to have a significant impact on air pollution inside, so there's no actual contradiction of policy there.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Herned »

jackal wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:15 People in England usually have the Netherlands in mind as some kind of transport utopia because they imagine that cycling replaces car journeys. In fact that is not the case. Car use is almost identical. The main difference is that, by comparison with England, there is very little use of walking and public transport for intra-city journeys.

http://www.transportparadise.co.uk/2014 ... al-splits/
The charts in that link compare the UK towns and cities with the lowest car use, not all towns/cities in the UK. The figures are not directly comparable so I'm not sure that you can conclude car use is identical.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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ais523 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 17:07
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:15Seems a bit bizarre given they scrapped them just as the CAZ came in. You either want to deter driving or you don't.
The purpose of the CAZ isn't to deter driving, it's to reduce air pollution in a specific area of Birmingham for which air pollution is already over the legal limits.

A bus lane that's outside the zone in question is unlikely to have a significant impact on air pollution inside, so there's no actual contradiction of policy there.
Discourage people from driving into the city by providing reliable public transport. Bus lanes would help that.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by jackal »

Herned wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 17:44
jackal wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:15 People in England usually have the Netherlands in mind as some kind of transport utopia because they imagine that cycling replaces car journeys. In fact that is not the case. Car use is almost identical. The main difference is that, by comparison with England, there is very little use of walking and public transport for intra-city journeys.

http://www.transportparadise.co.uk/2014 ... al-splits/
The charts in that link compare the UK towns and cities with the lowest car use, not all towns/cities in the UK. The figures are not directly comparable so I'm not sure that you can conclude car use is identical.
The national numbers actually show slightly higher modal share for cars in the Netherlands compared to the UK:

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... ab-chart_1

Also notable from that is vastly lower bus use in the Netherlands compared to the UK.

I used the more fine-grained city level numbers because the national numbers don't include walking or cycling.

The consistent picture from the data, whether national or local, is that a switch to a "Netherlands model" would mean vastly more cycling, vastly less walking and bus travel, and either no effect or a modest increase in car use.
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