The Dutch influence on UK road design

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Conekicker
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 15:58
Conekicker wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:54
Debaser wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:35
We've spent generations - essentially all the time since Buchanan - disregarding cycling as a mode of transport and treating it as a hobby or leisure past time and making our roads and streets hostile to cyclists and pedestrians. At what point do we stop and think about what we have done and try and make amends; make our roads less hostile to those who happen to be outside motor vehicles? Your statement seems to suggest we compound our error and don't even bother?
Some parts of the country are not conducive to cycling. Other parts are.
Leeds and Bradford might disagree with you there. Perhaps Sheffield needs to embrace ebikes. They make hills a lot easier.

E-scooters being made road legal would be a massive help too, why we're wasting police resources chasing people on these I do not know.
For the price of a couple of ebikes, you can buy a car and transport more than yourself around.

Sheffield implemented a pop-up bike lane as part of the covid reaction on Penistone Road/Shalesmoor. Which was rather bizarre given that for at least part of the route there was already a cycle lane. Unsurprisingly it was removed, as was the one on Attercliffe Road, mostly due to people not using it. There is little to no supressed demand for cycle facilities in Sheffield, despite what SCC might have one believe.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by FosseWay »

Stevie D wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:13 The main reason that I am aware of for encouraging cyclists to use ASLs – apart from simply giving them the time-saving benefit of filtering past motor traffic – is to reduce the risk of cyclists being hit by drivers turning left who are unaware of the cyclist on their inside. Putting the cyclists in front of the cars means that you are less likely to have a cyclist filtering up the inside of the traffic as it moves across the junction.
Yes, I get that, and it's important especially in contexts where cyclists reliably can filter at reasonable speed alongside traffic that might then sideswipe them. In other words, on roads that both have a marked cycle lane and are wide enough for it to be reliably usable when there is queueing traffic. Their usefulness becomes moot if the cyclists think they can use a cycle lane to get to an ASL in order to reduce the risk as you say, but find themselves blocked on the way there, alongside a stream of traffic that they might not have chosen to be alongside if they'd known.

I think also we need to consider motorists' reactions and behaviour in the circumstance where cyclists filter past queueing traffic and then have to be overtaken again, for several sets of lights on the trot. I know that drivers *should* be patient, and *should* see that if the same cyclist keeps catching them up then there probably isn't any point overtaking them. But we all know that not all drivers behave as we would wish, and how we encourage cyclists to behave does need to take that practical fact into consideration.

As said, I will filter past queueing traffic if it's safe and if it gives me some advantage, but I no more want to be in front of a bunch of cars that will need to overtake me than those drivers want me to be in front of them.

In practice, I encounter this kind of issue very infrequently these days, since anywhere round me with enough traffic to be relevant to this discussion has off-road provision of some kind (even if narrow and shared with peds).
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace »

AndyB wrote:Shared space is usually agreed now to be a bad thing...
And yet many Dutch residential roads are...
It needs the Dutch approach to priority of way and liability not the British.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace »

The biggest problem is the British have pretty much forgotten that active travel is a thing. Its almost at American levels of stupidity.

The pent up demand will never be there if people don't know its possible.
Shifting 3 kids to school 2km away in the uk is part of the bigger car arms race.
In the Netherlands its a mix of whackily loaded cargo bikes and various missized bikes. Why? They haven't forgotten.
Oh and yeah the weather's just as rubbish there.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by AndyB »

Nwallace wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 18:12
AndyB wrote:Shared space is usually agreed now to be a bad thing...
And yet many Dutch residential roads are...
It needs the Dutch approach to priority of way and liability not the British.

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Actually, it's not just the fact that drivers cannot be trusted not to act in stupid ways (see the story I have told a number of times when Martin Cassini and I were on Radio Ulster together, me live in the studio and Martin on the phone), but also that the lack of definition of walkway and road puts those with visual disabilities in danger. Kerblines work for anyone with a stick or any form of 3D vision.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Bryn666 »

It's the old feedback loop, British highway engineers have designed out active travel from the 60s onwards meaning people don't feel safe riding or walking on British roads and therefore they drive more.

Then British highway engineers decide the answer to this additional driving is to encourage even more of it by widening the roads in question and provide minimal facilities for active travel thus putting off the last few diehards.

The problem is entirely down to poor design manuals, a lack of willingness from able bodied men in engineering to consider anyone but themselves when developing a scheme, and a complete disregard for the proven benefits of cycling and walking.

Liability changes wouldn't prevent any of these problems beyond encouraging people who want a quick quid via Crash Claims 4 U to throw themselves under a car.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Vierwielen »

magd1272 wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 22:59
Anymore ?
Hopefully not ! Has anybody ever had a cyclist ride up the inside and plonked down in the bike space ? It has never happened to me yet, and Crewe is one of the towns with a large cycling population.
In London, all the time. It stresses me out greatly as cyclists whizz past both sides of my car, perilously close to the mirrors and wings. Then distribute themselves across the carriageway and hold up the traffic once the lights change.
One of my pet hates are lycra-clad warriors who refuse to use a cycle lane when one is provided such as here.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace »

Vierwielen wrote:
magd1272 wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 22:59
Anymore ?
Hopefully not ! Has anybody ever had a cyclist ride up the inside and plonked down in the bike space ? It has never happened to me yet, and Crewe is one of the towns with a large cycling population.
In London, all the time. It stresses me out greatly as cyclists whizz past both sides of my car, perilously close to the mirrors and wings. Then distribute themselves across the carriageway and hold up the traffic once the lights change.
One of my pet hates are lycra-clad warriors who refuse to use a cycle lane when one is provided such as here.
I see a roadway and a pedestrian road, Where's the cycle road?

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Vierwielen »

Nwallace wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 21:49
Vierwielen wrote:
magd1272 wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 22:59

In London, all the time. It stresses me out greatly as cyclists whizz past both sides of my car, perilously close to the mirrors and wings. Then distribute themselves across the carriageway and hold up the traffic once the lights change.
One of my pet hates are lycra-clad warriors who refuse to use a cycle lane when one is provided such as here.
I see a roadway and a pedestrian road, Where's the cycle road?

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Maybe I should have shown this image (a few hundred metres away).
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace »

Hm nope...
I'm not sure you see what the problem is.

Mixing vehicles that can travel at 15 to 30kmh with people that travel at up to 5kmh, is as bad design as mixing 5kmh with 50/60, and worse than mixing 20/30 with 50/60.

Throw in dogs and its even worse.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by owen b »

Vierwielen wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 21:34
One of my pet hates are lycra-clad warriors who refuse to use a cycle lane when one is provided such as here.
Scroll forward about five Google photos and you'll see that the "cycle lane" gives way to a side road entrance, which is both a safety risk and significantly impedes progress for the cyclist. Why should cyclists be expected to use inadequate infrastructure? Why should cyclists be expected to give way to turning traffic when road traffic on the main line doesn't?

For cycle lanes to be attractive they need to have as good priority as motorised traffic has on the main line. In the UK, that's very rare in my experience. Cycle lanes usually give way to side turnings :( .
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace »

The problems of cycle lanes like that are only really obviou when you're barrelling along at a reasonable cycling pace.
UK cycling infrastructure is targeted at a type of cycles that doesn't exist, aka the fast walker.

Can quite comfortably push along at 20 to 30kmh on Dutch ones in the countryside where "shared use" is more common than in town, largely because no one walks on them as they've wheeled their bike out the front door.

The real challenge for UK cycling infrastructure is big hills, can quite comfortably get 70kmh, that needs the same width lane as other traffic, the rest is just varieties of poor quality

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Stevie D »

Vierwielen wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 21:34One of my pet hates are lycra-clad warriors who refuse to use a cycle lane when one is provided such as here.
One of my pet hates are motorists who think that cyclists have a duty to use substandard infrastructure that will slow their journey down and put them at more risk of being involved in a collision just so that there's no chance that they might delay said motorist by a couple of seconds.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Stevie D »

Vierwielen wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 21:52Maybe I should have shown this image (a few hundred metres away).
So what I'm seeing is:

A pavement that forces cyclists to give way to traffic exiting and entering the roundabout with no priority, slowing them down and putting them in a dangerous position.
image_2021-07-19_001526.png
A pavement that is narrow and is shared with pedestrians.
image_2021-07-19_001712.png
A pavement that is not kept clear of leaves and detritus.
image_2021-07-19_001342.png
A pavement where cyclists have to give way to traffic turning on and off the main road with no priority, slowing them down and putting them in a more dangerous position.
And so on.
It is grossly inadequate as a cycle route, it doesn't meet any acceptable standards, it should not even be designated as a cycle route and there is certainly no way that you could force cyclists to use such a woeful piece of infrastructure instead of the road.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 19:23 It's the old feedback loop, British highway engineers have designed out active travel from the 60s onwards meaning people don't feel safe riding or walking on British roads and therefore they drive more. Then British highway engineers decide the answer to this additional driving is to encourage even more of it by widening the roads in question and provide minimal facilities for active travel thus putting off the last few diehards. The problem is entirely down to poor design manuals, a lack of willingness from able bodied men in engineering to consider anyone but themselves when developing a scheme, and a complete disregard for the proven benefits of cycling and walking. Liability changes wouldn't prevent any of these problems beyond encouraging people who want a quick quid via Crash Claims 4 U to throw themselves under a car.
Agreed, we've still got this problem in Colchester, although things are changing. We are going to get some high quality segregated cycle routes built over the next year or so https://www.essexhighways.org/uploads/s ... y-2021.pdf and these will make a big difference. Finally, there is a realisation that cycling can add to the public transport mix. As mentioned before we have a large P&R facility by the A12 supported by a fleet of special buses. However, this has all been very expensive https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-n ... ed-3228916 Cycling infra on the other hand is much more cost effective in comparison and its construction is now seen in a much more positive light. Going back to the Netherlands, they have a unified cycle network with a set of 'unified' standards which cross the country. Although we now have Local Transport Notes 2020 (LTN1/20) in the UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... n-1-20.pdf much is still left up to local authorities to decide. Each cycling infra scheme is therefore quite different. As the various networks develop I would argue that we need to work towards a more 'unified' national network like the Dutch.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 15:58 E-scooters being made road legal would be a massive help too, why we're wasting police resources chasing people on these I do not know.
Round here, almost exclusively in the hands of children, they are a problem for pedestrian cyclist and motorist alike. Given their very limit legal use, unless part of a hire scheme, it is a puzzle why the authorities didn't stop their sale from the off. And you have to query the cognative process of a parent who will spend £300+ on one and put it in the hands of their 13yo. They could, in some circumstances, be a useful tool in cutting vehicle use but not without some serious thought to how they would be regulated and the facilities to make their use safer.
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 19:23 It's the old feedback loop, British highway engineers have designed out active travel from the 60s onwards meaning people don't feel safe riding or walking on British roads and therefore they drive more.

Then British highway engineers decide the answer to this additional driving is to encourage even more of it by widening the roads in question and provide minimal facilities for active travel thus putting off the last few diehards.

The problem is entirely down to poor design manuals, a lack of willingness from able bodied men in engineering to consider anyone but themselves when developing a scheme, and a complete disregard for the proven benefits of cycling and walking.

Liability changes wouldn't prevent any of these problems beyond encouraging people who want a quick quid via Crash Claims 4 U to throw themselves under a car.
I went to the presentation on the recent Crewe Green roundabout, variously called "Whacky Races" and "Crewe Raceway by us locals. When I pointed out the rather poor facilities for cyclists and pedestrians I was told there was not enough of this class of traffic for anything special. I suggested rather than a trek round the outside of this very large "oblongabout", why not put a crossing across the middle with traffic lights and again was told this was not possible. Of course it IS possible as the roundabout at Hyde Park Corner demonstrates !
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Barkstar »

fras wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 14:57 I went to the presentation on the recent Crewe Green roundabout, variously called "Whacky Races" and "Crewe Raceway by us locals. When I pointed out the rather poor facilities for cyclists and pedestrians I was told there was not enough of this class of traffic for anything special. I suggested rather than a trek round the outside of this very large "oblongabout", why not put a crossing across the middle with traffic lights and again was told this was not possible. Of course it IS possible as the roundabout at Hyde Park Corner demonstrates !
It's the chicken and egg scenario as usual. People are put off commuter cycling because it can be dangerous. Making them feel safer would encourage more to cycle and if there are enough cyclists then the provision improves. There are places that are crying out for better provision, places where often isolated bits decent provision was put in place and it doesn't get used and then there's provision that's just a useless sop to the regs which no one uses and is then held as an example of why cyclists don't deserve helping. After the massive increase in cycling during lockdown is now the time to consider 'Build it and they will come'?
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Phil »

Jim606 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 19:21 Inspired by the famous Monty Python 'Life of Brian' sketch, I thought of a 'What did the Dutch ever do for us' version.

Well apart from,
  • Advanced Stop Lines (ASL) for bikes
    Dutch-style roundabouts
    Green bridges
    Shared space
Anymore?
Except, that as seems usual in the money / low tax obsessed UK, we don't want to spend more than the bare minimum so most of these ideas get badly implemented!
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Chris Bertram »

I started to compose a post pointing out the difference between Dutch and British bikes, but it was going nowhere. However, might those differences, and the consequent differencesin the behaviour of their riders, suggest different requirements for the infrastructure provided?
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