A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 13:10 Other solutions would be to make long distance traffic from the M25 east and London to use the M3 and A331 for Farnham rather than the A3 through Guildford.
Given that the top half of the A331 has been 50-ed due to "environmental reasons" and southern roundabout (with the A31) is chockabloc and being signalised, and then you still have to get from the A31 to the A3 (neither the B3000 nor the A325 are HGV friendly), this is a sub-optimal option.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

marconaf wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 00:01 Railways into Guildford already seem quite good - especially for its size relative to others, but of course are really optimised for the London flow. Commuting to it seems likely to be dominated by cars as actually the surrounding towns and villages are quite spread out which doesn’t lend itself to mass transit. Indeed I switched to a car ASAP as it was more reliable and flexible than the train (which require a cycle to the station, change and then walk between stations, and finally a bus within Guildford. The car was less than half the time).
Guildford (railway) station is not ideally situated... adding (more) local stations is an option, but paths on the mainline may be a challenge, and the long-distance routes need fewer not more stops. One for the Research Park, on the Reading/Guildford branch line would be an obvious win, though.

The really imaginative option would be a Croydon-like tram system..
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 07:22
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 13:10 Other solutions would be to make long distance traffic from the M25 east and London to use the M3 and A331 for Farnham rather than the A3 through Guildford.
Given that the top half of the A331 has been 50-ed due to "environmental reasons" and southern roundabout (with the A31) is chockabloc and being signalised, and then you still have to get from the A31 to the A3 (neither the B3000 nor the A325 are HGV friendly), this is a sub-optimal option.
If you’re heading from London or the M25 to Farnham, and going via the M3/A331 route, the B3000 and A325 don’t enter into it. I don’t know how you would “make” anyone use that route though.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Phil »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:32
Modal shift is perfectly possible for these distances, the lack of thinking by transport "planners" who are wedded to their cars and nothing else is the problem here. I can't think of any other profession where ideas are stunted unless they involve crap like purple cones.

If strategic traffic is being cocked up by local junction hopping then I'd be looking at closing slip roads. The fact people got angry when this was done in Port Talbot shows it works - if the road isn't there, you aren't going to drive that way. Have a look what's happened to traffic in Paris where boulevards are now residents only and everyone else is on a bike.
Transport planners can plan all they like - but they are NOT the people who decide on what gets done!

Transport planners get their instructions FROM POLITICIANS (in varying guises) - and therein lies the problem.

Ever since the 1960s Politicians (particularly those on the right of the political spectrum) have championed private motoring not just as a mode of transport - but as a symbol of someone status / wealth and the embodiment of those who are a success in life. Generations have bought into this message while the whole economy itself has been massively transformed so peoples workplaces are decentralised and much harder to serve effectively by public transport.

As a result Policies which seek to make motoring significantly more expensive or difficult are vote losses pretty much everywhere other than our biggest cities (and even there tensions arise between the outer suburbs and those urban areas closer in to the centre). London can afford to have an anti-car stance because the number of voters living in the inner boroughs (and who are most affected by pollution and also the least likely to own a car) outnumber those in the outer boroughs like Bromley (who have more in common with the residents of the Home counties). In Manchester, the true urban area is smaller and so its Mayor / transport authorities have to be a bit more careful in not alienating car owners as they have a grater influence on election results.

Taking on the well healed and car owning residents of Surrey is therefore going to be career suicide come election time. Its a problem repeated across the country - we know what the issues are is but people don't want to hear the truth which is they are the ones who need to change their car dependent lifestyle.

Naturally it doesn't help when you have a Government which takes the view that as only 20% of travel is done by rail the it should only provide 20% subsidy and increase fares above inflation year after year while freezing duty on fuel, but in reality even if rail and bus fares were a lot lower it still wouldn't help address the 'lifestyle' factors like widely dispersed jobs for example which put public transport at an inherent disadvantage from the get-go.

To achieve the step change in transport in places like Surrey will therefore need some pretty radical tax reform - increasing business rates the further away a premiss is from a public transport route for example (which goes completely against the low tax / harnessing the power of the free market crap a certain political grouping pushes) and a willingness to take on vested business interests (who will no doubt say less cars sold = less jobs, etc)
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:18
jackal wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:01 Pretty much every local authority in the UK has had public/active transport as their no. 1 transport priority for 30 years. Their efforts have conclusively demonstrated that, outside of the Golden Triangle, only a small proportion of local journeys can be shifted away from cars. I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of it, and I've personally always walked to work, cycled or got public transport. But it is a very stubborn fact about the UK.

The problems are too deep for any ad hoc cycle routes or park and rides to rectify, and require a fundamental rethink of the planning system. Basically our towns and cities are not built for anything other than cars.
Yes, because of planning decisions made over a short 15 year period. The Netherlands, (West) Germany, parts of France, etc, had the same problem, most of their cities had to be rebuilt from scratch after a little skirmish in 1939-45 too, but they've since turned round their car centric town cores and put strategic traffic onto appropriate autosnelwegen.

It's not done here because we don't want to, not because we can't. Too many transport planners in the UK lack the imagination and/or ability to change beyond 1960s thinking.
Part of the problem is that those who favour reducing car usage in the UK take the view that a big part of the way to achieve that is "no new roads". Plus lots of traffic calming etc.

This is *not* what European countries did, but good luck getting e.g. the Campaign for Better Transport to understand that.

Actually European countries built lots of motorways, and tend to have a clear "hierarchy of roads", from motorways down to "living streets", in order of how auto-focused they are.

We have the A205 and its like.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Well I'm glad this one got a good old discussion going.

I'd agree that most of the continental countries that have good public transport and good provision for pedestrians and cyclists also have good motorway networks - they often just have better infrastructure than we do across the board, rather than necessarily having made a radically different set of choices.

I'm very strongly in favour of boosting cycling, walking, public transport and electric personal mobility but I don't think this should be presented as a stark either/or with roadbuilding.

I can recall the years of debate about the A14 Huntingdon/Cambridge upgrade, where local groups made the case for what they considered alternatives to the scheme, like more buses, reviving or building railway lines, or more provision for cycling. I suppose the guided busway was a product of this sort of thinking too. All valid, even desirable, suggestions in their own right, but at the end of the day, a cycleway that makes it easier to get into Cambridge from one of the surrounding villages can't take off the road an HGV that gets off the ferry at the East Coast ports and needs to get to the Midlands via a reasonably direct route.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 13:10
I would open up some new rail stations to serve the outskirts of Guildford, which can help with the localised traffic.

1) Surrey Research Park/Hospital on the Ascot to Guildford Line

2) New station near the top Grange Road on the mainline to London to serve North Guildford

3) New station in Abbotswood/Burpham on the New Guildford Line to serve East Guildford
As someone who travels to Guildford regularly, it is not the Ascot to Guildford Line, its part of the North Downs Line between Reading and REigate. This section has four trains an hour two to Ascot and two to Reading, with the Reading trains not stopping between Guildford and Ash and Wokingham and Reading but everywhere else. The average journey time between Reading and Guildford is 48 minutes, just did it today. By the time you get to a station it is still quicker to drive even in peak times.

As someone who worked on Green Park station in Reading, enabling two trains an hour to stop involve consequences on the network from Birmingham to the South Coast. The Guildford lines are already congested so the answer for Network Rail will be no.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 07:22 Given that the top half of the A331 has been 50-ed due to "environmental reasons" and southern roundabout (with the A31) is chockabloc and being signalised, and then you still have to get from the A31 to the A3 (neither the B3000 nor the A325 are HGV friendly), this is a sub-optimal option.
I would not say the top half, its the last 1.25 miles to the M3, i've measured it. However half the signs are missing and it is blatantly ignored, probably because the Police said they would not enforce it given it did not meet SCC's own requirements for a lower speed limit!
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:13 Looking at aerial photos it would appear works have been to improve the junctions in Guildford already, which suggests the problem isn't through traffic staying on the A3 but local traffic clogging up the area.

I would put forth that it is more viable to look at local transport measures to reduce the volumes of local junction hopping clogging up a strategic trunk road rather than "one more lane will fix it", which has been proven time and time again to never work in these situations.
As a regular traveller to Guildford the 80's extension to the bypass was very good at stopping local traffic getting on. Both the Burpham and Woking Road junctions are only Northbound on and Southbound off, so local traffic has to fight its way along the A25 the old A3, similarly the Wooden Horse junction with the A322/A25 is only Northbound off and Southbound off. The Hogs Back only allows access from southbound A3 to westbound A31 and eastbound A31 to northbound A3 with all other manoeuvres required to use the B3000 between Godalming and Puttenham 2 miles west/south.

The university / sports centre is the only full moves junction for circa 7 miles so gets used a lot and also with a lot of u turners on the A3.

The biggest issue is three lanes in to two southbound and effectively given the A31 four in two northbound.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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If any upgrades to the 'urban' part of the Guildford Bypass happen, they will be online and involve demolition to nearby or inaccessible properties, so that's not happening anytime soon. One part of the A3 that could be tunnelled is the section that traverses Hog's Back, including the A31 interchange. The A3 climbs about 50m to the junction before descending that much in both directions. Given the geology of the area (from a north to south perspective) it might be possible to divert the A3 into a tunnel through Hog's Back, with the diverge point close to Watts Gallery and the new road rejoining the old north of Manor Way. The old A3 south of the A31 could then be removed, and the remainder becoming a spur between the A31 and A3, effectively lengthening the sliproads between the two, with a new fork interchange built north of Manor Way.

Just that project alone would still be expensive but if upgrades to the rest of the bypass were to then become politically acceptable, the boost in capacity would be greater than if they were to leave Hog's Back alone, partly because of the straighter alignment of the A3 mainline but also that the Hog's Back overbridge wouldn't be constraining the southbound carriageway to two narrow lanes north of the A31 turn-off.
Last edited by Patrick Harper on Fri Jul 23, 2021 23:34, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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A303Chris wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 14:17
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:13 Looking at aerial photos it would appear works have been to improve the junctions in Guildford already, which suggests the problem isn't through traffic staying on the A3 but local traffic clogging up the area.

I would put forth that it is more viable to look at local transport measures to reduce the volumes of local junction hopping clogging up a strategic trunk road rather than "one more lane will fix it", which has been proven time and time again to never work in these situations.
As a regular traveller to Guildford the 80's extension to the bypass was very good at stopping local traffic getting on. Both the Burpham and Woking Road junctions are only Northbound on and Southbound off, so local traffic has to fight its way along the A25 the old A3, similarly the Wooden Horse junction with the A322/A25 is only Northbound off and Southbound off. The Hogs Back only allows access from southbound A3 to westbound A31 and eastbound A31 to northbound A3 with all other manoeuvres required to use the B3000 between Godalming and Puttenham 2 miles west/south.

The university / sports centre is the only full moves junction for circa 7 miles so gets used a lot and also with a lot of u turners on the A3.

The biggest issue is three lanes in to two southbound and effectively given the A31 four in two northbound.
This is a very good point. In fact the only section of the bypass that really caters to intra-Guildford traffic is the few hundred metres between the University and A322 junctions. The majority of the bypass simply does not allow local traffic to enter, so modal shift to active travel etc is a complete non-starter.
Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 16:01 If any upgrades to the 'urban' part of the Guildford Bypass happen, they will be online and involve demolition to nearby or inaccessible properties, so that's not happening anytime soon. One part of the A3 that could be tunnelled is the section that traverses Hog's Hack, including the A31 interchange. The A3 climbs about 50m to the junction before descending that much in both directions. Given the geology of the area (from a north to south perspective) it might be possible to divert the A3 into a tunnel under Hog's Hack, with the diverge point close to Watts Gallery and the new road rejoining the old north of Manor Way. The old A3 south of the A31 could then be removed, and the remainder becoming a spur between the A31 and A3, effectively lengthening the sliproads between the two, with a new fork interchange built north of Manor Way.

Just that project alone would still be expensive but if upgrades to the rest of the bypass were to then become politically acceptable, the boost in capacity would be greater than if they were to leave Hog's Hack alone, partly because of the straighter alignment of the A3 mainline but also that the Hog's Hack overbridge wouldn't be constraining the southbound carriageway to two narrow lanes north of the A31 turn-off.
I can't imagine that a tunnel merely to improve the gradient would ever be cost effective, but a bypass would put the A3 on a better alignment past here.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 07:43
Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 07:22
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 13:10 Other solutions would be to make long distance traffic from the M25 east and London to use the M3 and A331 for Farnham rather than the A3 through Guildford.
Given that the top half of the A331 has been 50-ed due to "environmental reasons" and southern roundabout (with the A31) is chockabloc and being signalised, and then you still have to get from the A31 to the A3 (neither the B3000 nor the A325 are HGV friendly), this is a sub-optimal option.
If you’re heading from London or the M25 to Farnham, and going via the M3/A331 route, the B3000 and A325 don’t enter into it. I don’t know how you would “make” anyone use that route though.
Fair cop, I misread the original post. But I'll suggest that long-distance travellers for Farnham make a small proportion of the through-traffic in Guildford - one only has to compare the westbound queues for the A331 and the straight on traffic...

For me, from M25(J10), it is a real toss up between A3/A331 and M25/M3(J4) - and the unpredictability of J10-J11 means the A3 usually wins, so I guess I'm part of the problem
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

A303Chris wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 14:09 I would not say the top half, its the last 1.25 miles to the M3, i've measured it.
You're obviously not counting the one-and-a-half from the M3 to the A30 (which is also 50 for the same reason)... OK, that makes it approx 3/8s so not quite 1/2 ;-)
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 19:31
A303Chris wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 14:09 I would not say the top half, its the last 1.25 miles to the M3, i've measured it.
You're obviously not counting the one-and-a-half from the M3 to the A30 (which is also 50 for the same reason)... OK, that makes it approx 3/8s so not quite 1/2 ;-)
I never consider the bit between the A30 and A331 as the main part of the GSJ Blackwater Relief Road. I'm old enough to remember when this was opened as a single carriageway and was classified as the A321 and took traffic out of Camberley.

Given it is festooned with traffic lights, it has never felt part of a high quality route
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Getting slightly further away from Guildford, but today work starts at the A31/A331 junction
The next phase of the works will provide the new lane from the A331 passed the roundabout towards the A31 for Guildford bound traffic. The proposals also include new signal crossings and improvements so the cyclists and pedestrians using the Christmas Pie cycle route can easily and safely cross the slip road which are currently difficult to cross.

It involves the construction of a slip lane for vehicles travelling southbound on the A331, wishing to travel eastbound on the A31, removing the need for them to use the roundabout.
So... the solution to the congestion on aroundabout is (a) put traffic lights on it, but (b) build a free-flow slip - but then put traffic lights on it!
https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-and-t ... at-tongham
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:08 Getting slightly further away from Guildford, but today work starts at the A31/A331 junction
The next phase of the works will provide the new lane from the A331 passed the roundabout towards the A31 for Guildford bound traffic. The proposals also include new signal crossings and improvements so the cyclists and pedestrians using the Christmas Pie cycle route can easily and safely cross the slip road which are currently difficult to cross.

It involves the construction of a slip lane for vehicles travelling southbound on the A331, wishing to travel eastbound on the A31, removing the need for them to use the roundabout.
So... the solution to the congestion on aroundabout is (a) put traffic lights on it, but (b) build a free-flow slip - but then put traffic lights on it!
https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-and-t ... at-tongham
Shame that whoever wrote that press release doesn't know the difference between passed and past.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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jackal wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 16:40 ... snip ...

I can't imagine that a tunnel merely to improve the gradient would ever be cost effective, but a bypass would put the A3 on a better alignment past here.
The Italians seem to have a large number of tunnels. I sometime wonder if they were built so that the government of the day could rely on the Fiat 500 voters. :stir:
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:08 Getting slightly further away from Guildford, but today work starts at the A31/A331 junction
The next phase of the works will provide the new lane from the A331 passed the roundabout towards the A31 for Guildford bound traffic. The proposals also include new signal crossings and improvements so the cyclists and pedestrians using the Christmas Pie cycle route can easily and safely cross the slip road which are currently difficult to cross.

It involves the construction of a slip lane for vehicles travelling southbound on the A331, wishing to travel eastbound on the A31, removing the need for them to use the roundabout.
So... the solution to the congestion on a roundabout is (a) put traffic lights on it, but (b) build a free-flow slip - but then put traffic lights on it!
https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-and-t ... at-tongham
If the lights on the free flow slip are for predestinarians and cyclists to cross then I can't see that being an issue. We are hardly talking about Oxford Street proportions of foot traffic which (would be needed to justify grade separation)
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Phil wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 14:24 If the lights on the free flow slip are for predestinarians and cyclists to cross then I can't see that being an issue. We are hardly talking about Oxford Street proportions of foot traffic which (would be needed to justify grade separation)
Clearly enough to justify the expense? (Or perhaps not)
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 16:19
Phil wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 14:24 If the lights on the free flow slip are for predestinarians and cyclists to cross then I can't see that being an issue. We are hardly talking about Oxford Street proportions of foot traffic which (would be needed to justify grade separation)
Clearly enough to justify the expense? (Or perhaps not)
For traffic lights (which are cheap), Yes.

The official documentations makes specific mention that the slip roads are hard to cross and intimidating for cyclists / pedestrians and that is suppressing the potential of the footpaths / cycleways to do their job in providing attractive car free travel options.
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