A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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roadtester
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A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by roadtester »

I was watching Prime Minister's Questions on the telly last week, and the MP for Guildford, Angela Richardson, raised the subject of relieving the sub-standard and crowded section of the A3 through the town by building a tunnel.

https://www.guildford-dragon.com/2021/0 ... k-into-it/

I'd never heard of such a proposal before, but apparently it's an idea with at least some history/pedigree, albeit not one that has ever been worked up in any degree of detail.

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... t-11173059

I've often wondered as I've driven through how the A3 at Guildford could be improved, and always drew the conclusion that there wasn't much that could be done given the nature of the terrain and the lack of space. It never occurred to me that anything as ambitious as the tunnel could get traction, but I suppose if they did Hindhead, they could do this - eventually...
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by A320Driver »

Could it happen? Possibly. Will it happen? No, not in the lifetime of anyone reading this. The cost would be astronomical, and make the Stonehenge protests look like a village fête.
A far better idea would be a northern bypass (proposed on here before) with some localised tunnelling perhaps, but again even getting this built in Tory heartland would be extremely problematic…..
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 20:43 Could it happen? Possibly. Will it happen? No, not in the lifetime of anyone reading this. The cost would be astronomical, and make the Stonehenge protests look like a village fête.
A far better idea would be a northern bypass (proposed on here before) with some localised tunnelling perhaps, but again even getting this built in Tory heartland would be extremely problematic…..
The existing A3 is not fit for purpose. However, what to do about it is a challenge.

I'd be genuinely interested in any suggested route for a northern bypass... the tie in at the western side would have to be no further west than the A31 diverge, while it would have to go north of Sutton Place and Whitmoor Common. No way is that going to be acceptable.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by ChrisH »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 08:00
A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 20:43 Could it happen? Possibly. Will it happen? No, not in the lifetime of anyone reading this. The cost would be astronomical, and make the Stonehenge protests look like a village fête.
A far better idea would be a northern bypass (proposed on here before) with some localised tunnelling perhaps, but again even getting this built in Tory heartland would be extremely problematic…..
The existing A3 is not fit for purpose. However, what to do about it is a challenge.

I'd be genuinely interested in any suggested route for a northern bypass... the tie in at the western side would have to be no further west than the A31 diverge, while it would have to go north of Sutton Place and Whitmoor Common. No way is that going to be acceptable.
Something like this? Truvelo has redrawn the 1991 plans on SABRE Maps.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Chris5156 »

HE did have plans to add a third lane between Wooden Bridge and the A31, which would have done a lot to alleviate the major problems around Guildford, but it was never clear exactly how it would be fitted in to the section between Wooden Bridge and the University junction. The scheme was meant to be in RIS2 but was dropped.

It’s possible they dropped it because they’re going to work up plans for some bigger fix, like a northern bypass or a tunnel, but I’d expect to have seen details of a study or a consultation by now. Maybe it’s just on the “too difficult” pile.

FWIW a tunnel and a northern bypass both seem like a hiding to nothing in this part of the world. I’d be looking at creative reallocation of space to fit a third lane in, and possibly reconstruction of the A31 junction to add the missing movements and remove the offside entries and exits.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by jackal »

There's no case for a tunnel as a bypass or online widening are perfectly possible.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by multiraider2 »

Here seems tricky for online widening. I'm no engineer. Can the existing bridge be practically added to on either side? How would the junction be able to join to the widened carriageway? The slopes here would seem to make shortened slips here difficult to say the least. Online widening would also create a couple of years of chaos here I would imagine.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by jackal »

Technical solutions for that kind of situation can always be found. The problem is more the proximity of housing, especially at Ash Grove/Beckingham Road, where the houses either side of the A3 are only 50m from each other. A few dozen residential properties would probably have to be demolished, which is a tough sell. There may also be air quality issues.

The best approach is probably to work up options for online widening and a northern bypass, and see how they do at consultation. So basically what should have happened at Chichester...
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

Looking at aerial photos it would appear works have been to improve the junctions in Guildford already, which suggests the problem isn't through traffic staying on the A3 but local traffic clogging up the area.

I would put forth that it is more viable to look at local transport measures to reduce the volumes of local junction hopping clogging up a strategic trunk road rather than "one more lane will fix it", which has been proven time and time again to never work in these situations.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by jackal »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:13 Looking at aerial photos it would appear works have been to improve the junctions in Guildford already, which suggests the problem isn't through traffic staying on the A3 but local traffic clogging up the area.

I would put forth that it is more viable to look at local transport measures to reduce the volumes of local junction hopping clogging up a strategic trunk road rather than "one more lane will fix it", which has been proven time and time again to never work in these situations.
Ah yes, the tried and true approach of "too much hassle to sort out - make some glossy brochures about modal shift instead".

The A3 between the A31 and M25 consistently has 80k+ AADT. One section of it only has two lanes. That section is congested. It really is a reach to say the problem is a lack of local transport given the glaring bottleneck in road capacity, and the fact that volumes are the same (or higher) in rural sections of the same road.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:23
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:13 Looking at aerial photos it would appear works have been to improve the junctions in Guildford already, which suggests the problem isn't through traffic staying on the A3 but local traffic clogging up the area.

I would put forth that it is more viable to look at local transport measures to reduce the volumes of local junction hopping clogging up a strategic trunk road rather than "one more lane will fix it", which has been proven time and time again to never work in these situations.
Ah yes, the tried and true approach of "too much hassle to sort out - make some glossy brochures about modal shift instead".
I'd like to see some travel stats for journeys in and around Guildford. I would put money down that the majority of journeys clogging up the A3 there start and finish within 5 miles, the fact the A3 drops to D2 at Guildford and that the junctions have been widened to allow traffic to get into the town is a big indicator of this... still if you want to spaff millions shifting a queue 400 yards be my guest.

Modal shift is perfectly possible for these distances, the lack of thinking by transport "planners" who are wedded to their cars and nothing else is the problem here. I can't think of any other profession where ideas are stunted unless they involve crap like purple cones.

If strategic traffic is being cocked up by local junction hopping then I'd be looking at closing slip roads. The fact people got angry when this was done in Port Talbot shows it works - if the road isn't there, you aren't going to drive that way. Have a look what's happened to traffic in Paris where boulevards are now residents only and everyone else is on a bike.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by jackal »

Pretty much every local authority in the UK has had public/active transport as their no. 1 transport priority for 30 years. Their efforts have conclusively demonstrated that, outside of the Golden Triangle, only a small proportion of local journeys can be shifted away from cars. I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of it, and I've personally always walked to work, cycled or got public transport. But it is a very stubborn fact about the UK.

The problems are too deep for any ad hoc cycle routes or park and rides to rectify, and require a fundamental rethink of the planning system. Basically our towns and cities are not built for anything other than cars.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

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jackal wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:01 Pretty much every local authority in the UK has had public/active transport as their no. 1 transport priority for 30 years. Their efforts have conclusively demonstrated that, outside of the Golden Triangle, only a small proportion of local journeys can be shifted away from cars. I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of it, and I've personally always walked to work, cycled or got public transport. But it is a very stubborn fact about the UK.

The problems are too deep for any ad hoc cycle routes or park and rides to rectify, and require a fundamental rethink of the planning system. Basically our towns and cities are not built for anything other than cars.
Yes, because of planning decisions made over a short 15 year period. The Netherlands, (West) Germany, parts of France, etc, had the same problem, most of their cities had to be rebuilt from scratch after a little skirmish in 1939-45 too, but they've since turned round their car centric town cores and put strategic traffic onto appropriate autosnelwegen.

It's not done here because we don't want to, not because we can't. Too many transport planners in the UK lack the imagination and/or ability to change beyond 1960s thinking.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by thatapanydude »

Regarding road widening, a 1/2 way solution would be online widening to D3 of the easy section to the park&ride turn off where a decent chunk of traffic for Guildford will turn off.

Other solutions would be to make long distance traffic from the M25 east and London to use the M3 and A331 for Farnham rather than the A3 through Guildford.
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:13 I would put forth that it is more viable to look at local transport measures to reduce the volumes of local junction hopping clogging up a strategic trunk road rather than "one more lane will fix it", which has been proven time and time again to never work in these situations.
I would open up some new rail stations to serve the outskirts of Guildford, which can help with the localised traffic.

1) Surrey Research Park/Hospital on the Ascot to Guildford Line

2) New station near the top Grange Road on the mainline to London to serve North Guildford

3) New station in Abbotswood/Burpham on the New Guildford Line to serve East Guildford
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Vierwielen »

ChrisH wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 09:33
Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 08:00
A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 20:43 Could it happen? Possibly. Will it happen? No, not in the lifetime of anyone reading this. The cost would be astronomical, and make the Stonehenge protests look like a village fête.
A far better idea would be a northern bypass (proposed on here before) with some localised tunnelling perhaps, but again even getting this built in Tory heartland would be extremely problematic…..
The existing A3 is not fit for purpose. However, what to do about it is a challenge.

I'd be genuinely interested in any suggested route for a northern bypass... the tie in at the western side would have to be no further west than the A31 diverge, while it would have to go north of Sutton Place and Whitmoor Common. No way is that going to be acceptable.
Something like this? Truvelo has redrawn the 1991 plans on SABRE Maps.
The first question is whether or not this route has been protected or is it now part of a huge housing estate. If it is protected, is the A31 junction necessary - the Hogs Back is pretty steep and a tunnel here might well be the answer.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by M4 Cardiff »

Naturally depending on whether the railways can provide capacity, but improvements to the Mainline, electrification of the North Downs Line, capacity improvements to Guildford main station are planned, along with new stations at Park Barn and Burpham/Merrow. Although Guildford Station could perhaps be reconfigured, for example shifting Platform 8 over a bit to allow a new track to be installed for Platform 7, and possibly eating into the carriage sidings and low level car park area to provide extra or terminating-bay platforms (eg Pl 9, 10 etc) and there would be space to provide a Platform 0 in the parking area to the east of Platform 1, so all Epsom line trains run into terminating bays, rather than use Platform 2, the limiting factor is capacity through the tunnels if services on NDL are to be increased. A large housing development is also proposed to the west of Park Barn / Hospital site, which will connect to the A31 as well as the A3. - this alone makes a western route bypass difficult, unless it goes out as far as Puttenham.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Stevie D »

multiraider2 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:33 Here seems tricky for online widening. I'm no engineer. Can the existing bridge be practically added to on either side? How would the junction be able to join to the widened carriageway? The slopes here would seem to make shortened slips here difficult to say the least. Online widening would also create a couple of years of chaos here I would imagine.
Given the volume of traffic that joins the A3 at this point, it certainly wouldn't hurt to make that a lane-gain if you could then have 3 lanes from there up the hill to the A31 exit.
IMX, the queues are primarily caused by that merge, and so there probably isn't any need to add an extra line over that bridge.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:32 I'd like to see some travel stats for journeys in and around Guildford. I would put money down that the majority of journeys clogging up the A3 there start and finish within 5 miles, the fact the A3 drops to D2 at Guildford and that the junctions have been widened to allow traffic to get into the town is a big indicator of this...
The junctions on the A3 are mostly mono-directional...

A31: westbound off, eastbound on
A322: westbound on, eastbound off
A320: westbound off, eastbound on
A25: westbound off, eastbound on
A3100: westbound off, eastbound on

So there is very limited scope for local traffic to junction hop.

The only all-access junction is at Cathedral, for the University and Business Park - and it's a real mess most of the time. It's also an awkward join both ways, as the A3 is on a left hand curve, making sightlines trickier
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by Truvelo »

Vierwielen wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 17:38
ChrisH wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 09:33
Something like this? Truvelo has redrawn the 1991 plans on SABRE Maps.
The first question is whether or not this route has been protected or is it now part of a huge housing estate. If it is protected, is the A31 junction necessary - the Hogs Back is pretty steep and a tunnel here might well be the answer.
It's highly unlikely the 1991 route has been protected although neither route has since been built on so it would still be possible to build it. However I doubt such an outer bypass would ever be considered now. The best I can see happening is an A1 Gateshead Bypass style squeezing of an extra lane between junctions.
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Re: A3 Guildford tunnel - could it happen?

Post by marconaf »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 13:10
Other solutions would be to make long distance traffic from the M25 east and London to use the M3 and A331 for Farnham rather than the A3 through Guildford.
That seems unwise, that qaudrant of the M25 is already rammed and the M3 despite its ALR is not dissimilar.

Unless of course the M31 would get built to cut that corner :-) I’m not sure which is less likely, that or an A3 tunnel!

I think we need to stop trying to send people the long way round on a few very large roads and develop the point to point network that is direct.

Not only is it better for the travellers, but it is better for the world as shorter distances use less fuel etc.

Having travelled through Guildford a lot on and off over the years (family and occasionally work nearby), the traffic seems mostly either through or coming from outside into it. I dont think the A3 and its junctions would really help many local trips anyway. They seem set up for getting people in and out. Certainly a lot of the congestion seems like the rise to the Hogs Back and the short slips off/on plus weaving stopping the through traffic.

On the plus side it doesnt seem to get a lot of HGVs.

Railways into Guildford already seem quite good - especially for its size relative to others, but of course are really optimised for the London flow. Commuting to it seems likely to be dominated by cars as actually the surrounding towns and villages are quite spread out which doesn’t lend itself to mass transit. Indeed I switched to a car ASAP as it was more reliable and flexible than the train (which require a cycle to the station, change and then walk between stations, and finally a bus within Guildford. The car was less than half the time).
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