A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

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A42_Sparks
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by A42_Sparks »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 09:50 The scary thing is several of the signs that had M6 plated over pending the change are nearly life expired, so there's actually now a brilliant time to do it looming - but they won't because it's all politics.
It's funny how people claim that the general public don't care about road numbers and yet the A74(M)/M74 can't be renamed M6 because of the public backlash.

There's something peculiarly British about the thought of 'future-proofed' M6 plated signs reaching end-of-life and needing to be replaced with new signs featuring the 'temporary' A74(M) number.
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

SBRoxMan wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 09:45 Firstly, I'm aware that the reason why the A74(M) number exists in the first place, as it was meant to be a temporary number that would become the M6 once it was completed.

...
FINALLY someone has asked this!

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wrinkly
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by wrinkly »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 16:19 M6 - the Felixstowe to Stranraer motorway :lol: :twisted: :roll: :laugh:
But is that via the A75 or the M77?

I've joked previously that the M77 should be renamed M6 (or vice versa).
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 20:42 Highways England have given us, what with their recent works at Catthorpe, Brampton to Swavesey, and Girton, a near-uninterrupted expressway from Glasgow to Catthorpe to East London.
Fair point...

And with a small amount of faffing, through to Dover and the Chunnel...

Maybe time to move this thread a few doors down?
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Mark Hewitt »

jackal wrote:People already call it the M74. Really no reason not to change it.
"And if you want to know the stupidest thing about the SNP they are spending £Xmillion of YOUR money to change road signs from A74(M) to M74. Nobody knows why!"
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by A9NWIL »

thomas417 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:23 While I'd much prefer M6 all the way to Glasgow I understand politically that's a non starter at the moment.

Getting rid of the A74(M) would make a lot of sense however when signs become life expired. M6 in England and M74 in Scotland is something I could live with.
That or drop the 4 and have M7!
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Bryn666 »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 08:02
jackal wrote:People already call it the M74. Really no reason not to change it.
"And if you want to know the stupidest thing about the SNP they are spending £Xmillion of YOUR money to change road signs from A74(M) to M74. Nobody knows why!"
Unfortunately this is what utter melts in the press would report, despite the fact the youngest signs on the A74(M) are now 20 years old and reaching the end of their service life.
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by SBRoxMan »

lotrjw wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:15
thomas417 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:23 While I'd much prefer M6 all the way to Glasgow I understand politically that's a non starter at the moment.

Getting rid of the A74(M) would make a lot of sense however when signs become life expired. M6 in England and M74 in Scotland is something I could live with.
That or drop the 4 and have M7!
That would break Scotland's tradition of only naming motorways after the A road they replace. Only way we'd get an M7 if if they felt the need to build a Carlisle-Edinburgh motorway
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by rhyds »

SBRoxMan wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 13:29
lotrjw wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:15
thomas417 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:23 While I'd much prefer M6 all the way to Glasgow I understand politically that's a non starter at the moment.

Getting rid of the A74(M) would make a lot of sense however when signs become life expired. M6 in England and M74 in Scotland is something I could live with.
That or drop the 4 and have M7!
That would break Scotland's tradition of only naming motorways after the A road they replace. Only way we'd get an M7 if if they felt the need to build a Carlisle-Edinburgh motorway
M7 and A702(M) should do it!
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by belgarion »

Members of our family from Scotland and England say we're going across the A66 and up the M74, no-one ever mentions the M6 :lol:

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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by DB617 »

I find the entire string of decisions start to finish on the A74(M)/M74 to be baffling. It was already standard for Scottish motorways to take the number of the superseded A-road. The excuse of the construction being piecemeal doesn't wash with me as an M4 corridor person, because the M4 was in incomplete chunks with a fairly random order of ground breaking and completion for years when it extended into Wales, particularly the Cardiff bypass and the far western reaches - a short section of which was very briefly the original A48(M) but was renamed. The world didn't end when drivers left the M4 and had to take the A470/A48 to rejoin. It confused nobody that there was a gap in the M4 - drivers are not that clueless. It's just a big, big botch and nobody can convince me otherwise.
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Steven »

DB617 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 14:02 The excuse of the construction being piecemeal doesn't wash with me as an M4 corridor person, because the M4 was in incomplete chunks with a fairly random order of ground breaking and completion for years when it extended into Wales, particularly the Cardiff bypass and the far western reaches - a short section of which was very briefly the original A48(M) but was renamed. It's just a big, big botch and nobody can convince me otherwise.
Other than the A4(M) Maidenhead Bypass, the A48(M) Morriston Bypass and the A4 Chiswick Flyover! :wink: :laugh:

(plus the A48(M) Port Talbot Bypass, which is the section mentioned)
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by DB617 »

Steven wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 14:05
DB617 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 14:02 The excuse of the construction being piecemeal doesn't wash with me as an M4 corridor person, because the M4 was in incomplete chunks with a fairly random order of ground breaking and completion for years when it extended into Wales, particularly the Cardiff bypass and the far western reaches - a short section of which was very briefly the original A48(M) but was renamed. It's just a big, big botch and nobody can convince me otherwise.
Other than the A4(M) Maidenhead Bypass, the A48(M) Morriston Bypass and the A4 Chiswick Flyover! :wink: :laugh:

(plus the A48(M) Port Talbot Bypass, which is the section mentioned)
Hmm, yes, to be fair it was not entirely consistent at the time, so perhaps my Cardiff example is most appropriate. The break in the motorway was not judged to justify a different number, as the plans were clearly in place for a complete M4 through the area, even if there were some technicalities to be resolved with the line, consultations and engineering. Nobody felt the need to call the M4 west of J32 the A48(M) and leave it like that forever, which is pretty much the equivalent of what happened in Scotland.
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

DB617 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 14:02 The excuse of the construction being piecemeal doesn't wash with me as an M4 corridor person, because the M4 was in incomplete chunks with a fairly random order of ground breaking and completion for years when it extended into Wales, particularly the Cardiff bypass and the far western reaches - a short section of which was very briefly the original A48(M) but was renamed.
Indeed - the M3 was built in two distinct sections (and even the northern chunk were multi-phase), separated for several years by the Winchester gap...

It was not the A33(M).
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Glenn A »

I find it odd as quite a regular user of this excellent motorway. When the M74 by passed the Lesmahagow by pass and the A74 as far as Abington, it kept the M74 number, but the later upgrades became A74(M). Logically this should have been M74 all the way to Gretna, but the road has been lumbered with the A74(M) number ever since.
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 07:57
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 20:42 Highways England have given us, what with their recent works at Catthorpe, Brampton to Swavesey, and Girton, a near-uninterrupted expressway from Glasgow to Catthorpe to East London.
Fair point...

And with a small amount of faffing, through to Dover and the Chunnel...

Maybe time to move this thread a few doors down?
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by haggishunter »

Glenn A wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 17:58 I find it odd as quite a regular user of this excellent motorway. When the M74 by passed the Lesmahagow by pass and the A74 as far as Abington, it kept the M74 number, but the later upgrades became A74(M). Logically this should have been M74 all the way to Gretna, but the road has been lumbered with the A74(M) number ever since.
Lesmahagow was as you say bypassed, and the section south to Abington took a completely different route to the old A74, whereas south of Abington was more of an online upgrade wasn't it. Someone said a while back to me that was part of the reason, south of Abington it was an improved A74 under motorway regulations, hence A74(M) changing to M74.

Does the long hatched out third lane going Northbound towards the junction that accesses Cairnlodge Services and the A70 having any bearing on what then might have been future plans - like a lane drop to an upgraded route to Edinburgh as M7, M74 north from here and M6 to that point?
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Vierwielen »

roadtester wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 22:36
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 22:28
roadtester wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:22 Obviously there's a big argument to be had about whether the whole lot should be M6, but I'd have thought changing it from A74(M) to M74 would be completely uncontroversial. Most people who aren't road geeks probably don't even realise it's not M74 all the way to the border anyway.
Actually the A74(M) extends into England! This roadsign is about 500 metres from the border.
Ha ha! I knew that but the whole subject is so riddled with anomalies and inconsistencies, you can't mention every proviso, quirk, exception or whatever every time!
IMO, the road numbers exist for the benefit of the road authorities, if they were for the benefit of motorists, multiplexes would be properly signposted as would E-routes.
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by wrinkly »

haggishunter wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 21:58 Lesmahagow was as you say bypassed, and the section south to Abington took a completely different route to the old A74, whereas south of Abington was more of an online upgrade wasn't it. Someone said a while back to me that was part of the reason, south of Abington it was an improved A74 under motorway regulations, hence A74(M) changing to M74.
J12-13 is more offline than other sections but I don't think that's relevant to the numbering. I think it's just a question of timing - by the time the decision to introduce the number A74(M) was taken in 1991, J12-13 was probably about to open, so it kept the older number M74.

I suspect that disagreements within the then Scottish Office may have contributed to the messed up situation.
Does the long hatched out third lane going Northbound towards the junction that accesses Cairnlodge Services and the A70 having any bearing on what then might have been future plans - like a lane drop to an upgraded route to Edinburgh as M7, M74 north from here and M6 to that point?
The reason for the change from D2M to D3M is all about timing. The decision to make the whole route a motorway happened in 1987, and sections designed before that are D2M (except approaching Glasgow north of J6). Sections designed after 1987 are all D3M.

For about a year after opening, the northbound lane drop at J12 took place by dropping the left lane into the exit slip road. The mile-long hatching took place as a change to that. I wonder if maybe some sleepy HGV driver wend down the slip road by mistake and across the A70!

More on the wiki page M74 and A74(M) History.

Edit: there was at one stage a plan for a new/upgraded route from J12 towards Edinburgh (actually to M8 J4 at Whitburn) - see M6-M8 Fastlink - but probably not relevant either to the lane drop at J12 or the M74/A74(M) number change.

From the SABRE Wiki: M74 and A74(M) History :

The M74 and A74(M) are motorways in southern Scotland, the latter being a southward continuation of the former. Considered together, they run from Glasgow to a point just south of the English border near Gretna, where they meet the M6. They form the only substantially-D3M long-distance rural motorway in Scotland. (The A74(M) is D3M throughout; the M74 is a mixture of D2M and D3M, with some sections near Glasgow widened to D4M in 2017.)

To restate

... Read More
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Re: A74(M): Why Keep The Name?

Post by Duncan macknight »

There’s a clear answer to why This anomaly exists.

A74(M) is the lovely 3 lane, free flowing section.

M74 is the 2 lane busy section with the scary Junctions.

End of Discussion (!)
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