Improved roads later bypassed.

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Owain »

ajuk wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 02:43 I'm not sure if this has been discuses before. I know there are plenty of sections of A road that were later superseded by motorways that contain online upgrades, or bypasses, in some cases the upgrade may have occurred after the motorway was build because the old A road remains locally significant ie the Marshfield bypass. I'm not talking about roads superseded by motorways here.

I'm talking about A roads that were given online upgrades only to be abandoned as the main road at a later date.
I think we had a thread on bypasses that had been bypassed. That's similar, but obviously not the same thing.

On that thread I mentioned that - aside from the A38 in Gloucester (bypassing the city, and then itself bypassed by the M5) - the original A40 was diverted to bypass its original route through the city centre via Escourt Road-St Oswalds Road, before again being diverted to bypass that via its current alignment.
So you now have a seemingly insignificant road with a crawler lane.
Examples I can think of at the old A30 through Blackwater, sections of the old A40 in Pembrokeshire, the old A48 out of Chepstow and I seem to remember a crawler lane somewhere near Frome, but can't remember where I was, not sure if it was ex A361.
I don't know how old the crawler lane on Castleford Hill (original A48 from Chepstow to Tutshill) would be, but it was pretty old and I'm not sure that it wasn't like that from the time that the A48 number took over from the original A437 in 1935.

There is a similar example not far away in Lydney, where the old NSL signs coincided almost perfectly with the beginning of the S2+1 alignment up Highfield Road in the direction of Gloucester. That was possibly a more recent upgrade than Castleford Hill, but it's still as old as I can remember and was nonetheless bypassed completely (and speed limit reduced to 40) in the 1990s; there are still green signs on the old A48 through the town centre, implying that the road is still more important than it actually is.

As for Frome, the modern bypass that it shares with Beckington and the A36 has plenty of S2+1, but the original route (now B3090 through Frome, and unclassified through Beckington) has nothing that looks like it would ever have been S2+1. For your Frome example, might you be thinking of another town near the Somerset-Wiltshire border?

Cirencester does of course have a dualled bypass (currently A429) that follows the course of the River Churn closely, and that bypass was itself bypassed by the much more modern A417/A419 identity crisis (i.e. the bit of dual carriageway where it's not clear which number applies) much more recently.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9861
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by owen b »

wrinkly wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 18:33
Herned wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 09:57 On a slight tangent, if the A358 dualling ever happens, the 1980s bypasses of Ashill and Hatch Beauchamp will be dualled online. Are there any other examples of that happening?
Online dualling of previous single carriageway bypasses?

Brechin (now A90) and Northop Hall (A55) spring to mind. I imagine there must be a fair number of other examples.
Part of Sandwich (A256), Higham Ferrers (A45), Spaldwick (A14), part of Worcester (A4440).
Owen
NICK 647063
Member
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 17:48
Location: Leeds

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by NICK 647063 »

Many on the A1 for example like through Fairburn used to be an S2 then dualled in the 60’s to then be bypassed in 2005 by the offline A1(M) with the old A1 returned to S2…..

Another good one is North of Wetherby that section of A1 is now the S2 A168 but with 2 bridges forming GSJ’s, obviously it was the S2 A1 upgraded to D2 with GSJ added then bypassed by the A1(M) leaving the D2 to be reduced to S2 but with some large bridges looking a little out of place.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Owain »

owen b wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:38
wrinkly wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 18:33
Herned wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 09:57 On a slight tangent, if the A358 dualling ever happens, the 1980s bypasses of Ashill and Hatch Beauchamp will be dualled online. Are there any other examples of that happening?
Online dualling of previous single carriageway bypasses?

Brechin (now A90) and Northop Hall (A55) spring to mind. I imagine there must be a fair number of other examples.
Part of Sandwich (A256), Higham Ferrers (A45), Spaldwick (A14), part of Worcester (A4440).
Referring back to the A40 at Gloucester (as mentioned above), nobody in the area ever understood why the section between the A38 roundabout (dualled all the way from Cheltenham) and the A417 roundabout (dualled onwards to Highnam) was built as S2W with central hatching from the very beginning!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by jervi »

I stayed in Ballachulish last week and the A82 there bypassed, and then bypassed again.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 17&layer=0
Although it wasn't always the A82, think the classifications around there have changed a few times
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Chris Bertram »

Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 23:29
owen b wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:38
wrinkly wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 18:33
Online dualling of previous single carriageway bypasses?

Brechin (now A90) and Northop Hall (A55) spring to mind. I imagine there must be a fair number of other examples.
Part of Sandwich (A256), Higham Ferrers (A45), Spaldwick (A14), part of Worcester (A4440).
Referring back to the A40 at Gloucester (as mentioned above), nobody in the area ever understood why the section between the A38 roundabout (dualled all the way from Cheltenham) and the A417 roundabout (dualled onwards to Highnam) was built as S2W with central hatching from the very beginning!
Running out of the budget, probably.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 23:29
owen b wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:38
wrinkly wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 18:33
Online dualling of previous single carriageway bypasses?

Brechin (now A90) and Northop Hall (A55) spring to mind. I imagine there must be a fair number of other examples.
Part of Sandwich (A256), Higham Ferrers (A45), Spaldwick (A14), part of Worcester (A4440).
Referring back to the A40 at Gloucester (as mentioned above), nobody in the area ever understood why the section between the A38 roundabout (dualled all the way from Cheltenham) and the A417 roundabout (dualled onwards to Highnam) was built as S2W with central hatching from the very beginning!
Structures ain't cheap, so we cut corners. And then wonder why things don't work.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Owain »

Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 08:53
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 23:29Referring back to the A40 at Gloucester (as mentioned above), nobody in the area ever understood why the section between the A38 roundabout (dualled all the way from Cheltenham) and the A417 roundabout (dualled onwards to Highnam) was built as S2W with central hatching from the very beginning!
Running out of the budget, probably.
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 13:18Structures ain't cheap, so we cut corners. And then wonder why things don't work.
Thinking a bit more about it, the section concerned is built on a causeway that had to be built for the road, as it crosses a natural floodplain that helps to prevent the city of Gloucester from ending up under water. That doesn't apply to either the dualled section to the west (which is much older), or the dualled section to the east (which was built as part of the same scheme).

My grandmother still lives near the A40-A38 roundabout. I recall several discussions about different proposals for the road. One involved making the roundabout a GSJ so that the A40 could fly over the A38 (to which she objected on the grounds that it would spoil the approach to the city), and I'd assume that the section we're talking about would have had be dualled had that idea gone through. The other involved similarly making the junction a GSJ, but with a view to a much more ambitious project to divert the A40 north to meet the M50, presumably along the current route of the A417. How serious that idea was, I don't know.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9861
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by owen b »

Owain wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 13:29 Thinking a bit more about it, the section concerned is built on a causeway that had to be built for the road, as it crosses a natural floodplain that helps to prevent the city of Gloucester from ending up under water. That doesn't apply to either the dualled section to the west (which is much older), or the dualled section to the east (which was built as part of the same scheme).

My grandmother still lives near the A40-A38 roundabout. I recall several discussions about different proposals for the road. One involved making the roundabout a GSJ so that the A40 could fly over the A38 (to which she objected on the grounds that it would spoil the approach to the city), and I'd assume that the section we're talking about would have had be dualled had that idea gone through. The other involved similarly making the junction a GSJ, but with a view to a much more ambitious project to divert the A40 north to meet the M50, presumably along the current route of the A417. How serious that idea was, I don't know.
The "ambitious project" to divert the A40 to the M50 was in the 1989 Roads for Prosperity proposals and was described as being from "M50 Gorsley - Longford (A40)", 12 miles long.
Owen
User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11081
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by ForestChav »

owen b wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 22:49
Owain wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 13:29 Thinking a bit more about it, the section concerned is built on a causeway that had to be built for the road, as it crosses a natural floodplain that helps to prevent the city of Gloucester from ending up under water. That doesn't apply to either the dualled section to the west (which is much older), or the dualled section to the east (which was built as part of the same scheme).

My grandmother still lives near the A40-A38 roundabout. I recall several discussions about different proposals for the road. One involved making the roundabout a GSJ so that the A40 could fly over the A38 (to which she objected on the grounds that it would spoil the approach to the city), and I'd assume that the section we're talking about would have had be dualled had that idea gone through. The other involved similarly making the junction a GSJ, but with a view to a much more ambitious project to divert the A40 north to meet the M50, presumably along the current route of the A417. How serious that idea was, I don't know.
The "ambitious project" to divert the A40 to the M50 was in the 1989 Roads for Prosperity proposals and was described as being from "M50 Gorsley - Longford (A40)", 12 miles long.
Wasn't the idea to use the route to M50 J3, making that whole junction much more baffling?
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9861
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by owen b »

ForestChav wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 22:53
owen b wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 22:49
Owain wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 13:29 Thinking a bit more about it, the section concerned is built on a causeway that had to be built for the road, as it crosses a natural floodplain that helps to prevent the city of Gloucester from ending up under water. That doesn't apply to either the dualled section to the west (which is much older), or the dualled section to the east (which was built as part of the same scheme).

My grandmother still lives near the A40-A38 roundabout. I recall several discussions about different proposals for the road. One involved making the roundabout a GSJ so that the A40 could fly over the A38 (to which she objected on the grounds that it would spoil the approach to the city), and I'd assume that the section we're talking about would have had be dualled had that idea gone through. The other involved similarly making the junction a GSJ, but with a view to a much more ambitious project to divert the A40 north to meet the M50, presumably along the current route of the A417. How serious that idea was, I don't know.
The "ambitious project" to divert the A40 to the M50 was in the 1989 Roads for Prosperity proposals and was described as being from "M50 Gorsley - Longford (A40)", 12 miles long.
Wasn't the idea to use the route to M50 J3, making that whole junction much more baffling?
Gorsley is close to M50 J3 so presumably yes. I don't know the details.
Owen
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Owain »

owen b wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 23:03
ForestChav wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 22:53
owen b wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 22:49
The "ambitious project" to divert the A40 to the M50 was in the 1989 Roads for Prosperity proposals and was described as being from "M50 Gorsley - Longford (A40)", 12 miles long.
Wasn't the idea to use the route to M50 J3, making that whole junction much more baffling?
Gorsley is close to M50 J3 so presumably yes. I don't know the details.
Ah - thanks for that. It would have made much more sense than using the A417 route.

As it is, the B4215-B4221 road is scarcely any worse than the existing A40, once you get past Huntley and it becomes narrow and twisty. It wouldn't surprise me if Ross-Gloucester commuters already favoured that route.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
jabbaboy
Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 09:25
Location: Newcastle

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by jabbaboy »

If I've read this right, there's loads of sections in Northumberland.

https://goo.gl/maps/p8x66iqFEXBDpabS7 - This is old road between Seaton Burn and Blagdon on the A1 which is probably an old S3, but is now replaced by a dual carriageway.

I don't know the history around Felton but this section also on the A1 seems 60's/70's vintage - https://goo.gl/maps/JXprpw1Ja8j3NQLk6 and has been bypassed now I know the section around Felton came later than earlier sections (using the maps on here).

Amazingly both of them are much better than the actual A1 further North.

https://goo.gl/maps/h9Gw62Q6qRZ12A1JA - There's also sections of the old A69 which has been upgraded at some point which has also been dualled.

Further North there's the Linton bypass - https://goo.gl/maps/PFcCXKVSDCH9jhRX9 which was later replaced by the new dual carriageway which appears to bypass the even older A1 which had been upgraded at some point aswell - https://goo.gl/maps/As4N9FfN1kLtCfuN9.

There's also this stub on the old Dunbar Bypass which is just outright abandoned - https://goo.gl/maps/rvnnxKjvmW7jPfLE9

https://goo.gl/maps/2gNeN4ztiVjYRuD66 - Plus this on the A9 near Moy, not sure on the history here though.

The last ones can't have been in use for 20 years before their bypasses came looking at the era of build, possibly even less.
User avatar
RJDG14
Member
Posts: 8869
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 15:47
Location: Swindon
Contact:

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by RJDG14 »

ajuk wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 02:43 I'm not sure if this has been discuses before. I know there are plenty of sections of A road that were later superseded by motorways that contain online upgrades, or bypasses, in some cases the upgrade may have occurred after the motorway was build because the old A road remains locally significant ie the Marshfield bypass. I'm not talking about roads superseded by motorways here.
I'm talking about A roads that were given online upgrades only to be abandoned as the main road at a later date. So you now have a seemingly insignificant road with a crawler lane.
Examples I can think of at the old A30 through Blackwater, sections of the old A40 in Pembrokeshire, the old A48 out of Chepstow and I seem to remember a crawler lane somewhere near Frome, but can't remember where I was, not sure if it was ex A361.
The M4 officially bypasses the A4, not the A420 which bypasses Marshfield, and the A420 is still quite a major road for direct travel from Chippenham to Bristol or the Lansdown end of Bath because it's A: a fast road (for a single carriageway) to drive down, and B: doesn't involve a detour up the A350 and down the M32 or A46. The A4 between Chippenham and Bath has had very few upgrades since the M4 was built but is still a good way to get between the two, and in many respects is probably about as busy today as it was in the 1960s before the M4 was linked between Tormarton and Maidenhead (as well as being a good modern day showcase of what a major trunk route from the 1950s was like), though it was probably significantly less busy during the 1970s and 1980s and probably returned to its pre-motorway traffic levels in the 1990s when second car ownership became significantly more common for households.

Do you know when the A420 Marshfield Bypass was built? I'd imagine it was sometime in the 1980s although I could be wrong.
RJDG14

See my Geograph profile here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/74193
The Swindon Files - Swindon's modern history - http://rjdg14.altervista.org/swindon/

----
If I break a policy designed only to protect me and nobody else, have I really broken anything?
mfmman
Member
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 19:12

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by mfmman »

Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 19:51
Cirencester does of course have a dualled bypass (currently A429) that follows the course of the River Churn closely, and that bypass was itself bypassed by the much more modern A417/A419 identity crisis (i.e. the bit of dual carriageway where it's not clear which number applies) much more recently.
Same further south where it's definitely A419, Dualled through Blunsdon at some point (maybe '70s?) then bypassed altogether by 2008
mfmman
Member
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 19:12

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by mfmman »

RJDG14 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 15:29

Do you know when the A420 Marshfield Bypass was built? I'd imagine it was sometime in the 1980s although I could be wrong.
Between 1966 and 1971 going by Old Maps
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9861
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by owen b »

jabbaboy wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 00:25 I don't know the history around Felton but this section also on the A1 seems 60's/70's vintage - https://goo.gl/maps/JXprpw1Ja8j3NQLk6 and has been bypassed now I know the section around Felton came later than earlier sections (using the maps on here).
That reminds me that both the northern half of the Felton bypass (originally early 1980s S2 build I believe) and the Alnwick bypass (originally S2, late 60s I think) are further examples of S2 bypasses which were subsequently dualled online, Felton circa 1998/9, Alnwick 2001/2.
Owen
User avatar
bothar
Member
Posts: 4809
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 22:50
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by bothar »

In Ireland there are many examples of this where there were fairly short online upgrades of a route where a large scheme on a new route later bypassed this entire section of road e.g. this section of the former N2.
"I intend to always travel a different road"
Ibn Battuta 1304-1368
User avatar
ajuk
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 23:59
Location: Bristol

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by ajuk »

RJDG14 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 15:29
ajuk wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 02:43 I'm not sure if this has been discuses before. I know there are plenty of sections of A road that were later superseded by motorways that contain online upgrades, or bypasses, in some cases the upgrade may have occurred after the motorway was build because the old A road remains locally significant ie the Marshfield bypass. I'm not talking about roads superseded by motorways here.
I'm talking about A roads that were given online upgrades only to be abandoned as the main road at a later date. So you now have a seemingly insignificant road with a crawler lane.
Examples I can think of at the old A30 through Blackwater, sections of the old A40 in Pembrokeshire, the old A48 out of Chepstow and I seem to remember a crawler lane somewhere near Frome, but can't remember where I was, not sure if it was ex A361.
The M4 officially bypasses the A4, not the A420 which bypasses Marshfield, and the A420 is still quite a major road for direct travel from Chippenham to Bristol or the Lansdown end of Bath because it's A: a fast road (for a single carriageway) to drive down, and B: doesn't involve a detour up the A350 and down the M32 or A46. The A4 between Chippenham and Bath has had very few upgrades since the M4 was built but is still a good way to get between the two, and in many respects is probably about as busy today as it was in the 1960s before the M4 was linked between Tormarton and Maidenhead (as well as being a good modern day showcase of what a major trunk route from the 1950s was like), though it was probably significantly less busy during the 1970s and 1980s and probably returned to its pre-motorway traffic levels in the 1990s when second car ownership became significantly more common for households.

Do you know when the A420 Marshfield Bypass was built? I'd imagine it was sometime in the 1980s although I could be wrong.
I would assume the M4 was meant to supersede quite a few other roads? Example the M5 closely follows the A38, but also sections of the A46 were de-trunked or made non-primary. The M40 downgraded not just the A41 but also the A34 and A423, There's probably a thread this already?
I think the main road from Bristol to London was the A4 only as far a Chippenham when the A420 became the more obvious route to Bristol, quite why the A4 is the road that goes through Bath, I don't know.
Isleworth1961
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 14:15
Location: South Gloucestershire

Re: Improved roads later bypassed.

Post by Isleworth1961 »

ajuk wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 02:18 I think the main road from Bristol to London was the A4 only as far a Chippenham when the A420 became the more obvious route to Bristol, quite why the A4 is the road that goes through Bath, I don't know.
The old "Bath Road" from London to Bath was a long-established road - Bath was the 'go-to' place in the west, hence it's name for much of its route from London to Bath. When numbers were allocated, it presumably made sense to just allocate a number to the 'Bath Road' in its entirety (except for the bit that the yet to be built Great West Road was planned to replace through Brentford and Hounslow). Also, what became the A4 between Chippenham and Bristol was probably a more suited road - the actual road between Chippenham and Bath would have been wider and better surfaced, as would the road between Bath and Bristol, while much of the A420 was probably still more of a country lane by comparison back in the early 1920s. Long distance travel avoiding established stopping places with facilities wasn't yet such a thing back then either.
Last edited by Isleworth1961 on Sun Aug 15, 2021 08:48, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply