£40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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JammyDodge
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by JammyDodge »

KeithW wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:49 I do recall that Moor Farm Roundabout at Cramlington has a lot of problems with congestion and has a poor accident record, it really needs a decent GSJ. The Seaton Burn Roundabout isn't much better.
Also, from experience, changing the light timings would help
The Current issue I experience here is traffic blocking this section. Sometimes it takes more than 5 cycles of the lights to get past the A19N
By allowing a bit of green-time (like 10s?) before allowing the A189N onto the roundabout would help unclog it a little during peak times. It still needs a GSJ, but this would help
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Mapper89062 »

It appears that with that much money allocated, the freeflow option must have been selected at Copdock!

Regarding Moor Farm, even if flows to the A189 are more important, I doubt NH would want to prioritise a local authority road over their own one. With that in mind, I came up with a two junction design that utilises the conveniently placed slips further west, as well as the existing links between the two:
IMG_20220521_132040.jpg
As you can see, the idea is that the western junction and collector distributor lanes serve local traffic, while the main Moor Farm junction provides access to the A189. If it isn't clear from the above plan, the A1171 linking the two would become one-way eastbound, and the slip from the A1171 to the B road would be segregated from the eastbound Moor Farm offslip so you can only access the B road by using the earlier exit. To get off the B road, there's a bridge further north on the A189 that could have a south-facing onslip added, or maybe the roundabout could be expanded to the north to fit an extra exit onto it. There's also room to freeflow A189 SB -> A19 SB as shown above, so enough signal time ought to be able to be allocated to handle the remaining main movement.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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I'm quite surprised at the cost increases in that spreadsheet in the space of 1 year - maybe things weren't up to date but it is still surprising - and I've worked in the industry for years.

I believe Leicester Western Access was also including Smart Motorway from J21 to 23a but information is extremely lacking. Maybe this element to the scheme has been dropped.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Glenn A »

JammyDodge wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 23:11
KeithW wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:49 I do recall that Moor Farm Roundabout at Cramlington has a lot of problems with congestion and has a poor accident record, it really needs a decent GSJ. The Seaton Burn Roundabout isn't much better.
Also, from experience, changing the light timings would help
The Current issue I experience here is traffic blocking this section. Sometimes it takes more than 5 cycles of the lights to get past the A19N
By allowing a bit of green-time (like 10s?) before allowing the A189N onto the roundabout would help unclog it a little during peak times. It still needs a GSJ, but this would help
I used Moor Farm Roundabout last month when travelling from Ponteland to North Shields and it is a pain, with the traffic light cycles meaning considerable queues. The roundabout handles traffic heading to the A1, the Tyne Tunnel, central Newcastle and SE Northumberland, and wasn't built for modern volumes of traffic. A GSJ is probably the only answer as the roundabout is a real bottleneck on a road that is mostly free flowing.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Debaser »

darkcape wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 16:13 I'm quite surprised at the cost increases in that spreadsheet in the space of 1 year - maybe things weren't up to date but it is still surprising - and I've worked in the industry for years.
With the RIS2 schemes it has been noticeable that design work which should have been done in Stage 3 (preliminary design) has not been carried out, meaning;
1) Much more work is required of the designers carrying out Stage 5 (detailed design) and,
2) The scheme cost estimates worked out based on the Stage 3 designs have been woefully underdone, meaning increased costs (and the risk of the scheme falling out of RIS2) or major 'value engineering' of the design to get somewhere close to the previous cost estimate.

I for one have no faith in any scheme cost estimates given for NH schemes before detailed design is complete.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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darkcape wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 16:13 I'm quite surprised at the cost increases in that spreadsheet in the space of 1 year - maybe things weren't up to date but it is still surprising - and I've worked in the industry for years.

I believe Leicester Western Access was also including Smart Motorway from J21 to 23a but information is extremely lacking. Maybe this element to the scheme has been dropped.
This is indeed one of the more remarkable increases, from £234,000,000 in December to £564,000,000 now, which would conveniently tally with a change from ALR to full widening. That said, the A19 and A27 schemes have similar increases that cannot be for that reason.

More likely it is just that the initial cost was very sketchy and now things are getting a bit more realistic. It's not a matter of PCF stage 3 to 5 (though I don't doubt what Debaser says about that). These are schemes at stages 0 to 1, where costs are inevitably guesswork and prone to dramatic increases as reality intrudes. This doesn't really imply any failing - it's just with this contract pipeline we are getting a bit more insight into pre-public consultation cost estimates than we usually would.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jabbaboy »

Mapper89062 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 13:33 It appears that with that much money allocated, the freeflow option must have been selected at Copdock!

Regarding Moor Farm, even if flows to the A189 are more important, I doubt NH would want to prioritise a local authority road over their own one. With that in mind, I came up with a two junction design that utilises the conveniently placed slips further west, as well as the existing links between the two:

IMG_20220521_132040.jpg

As you can see, the idea is that the western junction and collector distributor lanes serve local traffic, while the main Moor Farm junction provides access to the A189. If it isn't clear from the above plan, the A1171 linking the two would become one-way eastbound, and the slip from the A1171 to the B road would be segregated from the eastbound Moor Farm offslip so you can only access the B road by using the earlier exit. To get off the B road, there's a bridge further north on the A189 that could have a south-facing onslip added, or maybe the roundabout could be expanded to the north to fit an extra exit onto it. There's also room to freeflow A189 SB -> A19 SB as shown above, so enough signal time ought to be able to be allocated to handle the remaining main movement.
Btw in earlier plans, there were plans for a new slip road from the A1171 junction onto the A19(S), with a similar layout to the new Downhill Junction at the other side of the water where A19 can leave the road at Testo's but you can't rejoin from the slip road. Wouldn't be surprised if that's still part of the plans, the other will fail on public transport grounds as there's two local bus routes along the B1505 which would be hindered with your plans.

There's also rumours (ie. plans for a grey building with blue panels the same as every other one) for a new Amazon distribution depot on the empty land on the South of Broadlaw which no doubt they'll have took into account aswell.

I'm not sure whether Highways England will have any input into changing it but the A19(S) -> A1171 is a rather strange junction where you have to get across a lane and do a 360 degree turn on the road to head towards Dudley where that would be which is less than ideal.
Untitled-2.png
Personally I think it will be something more like the red here, in an ideal world the blue would be done aswell but it won't.

Edit: Full size image - https://i.ibb.co/fMjGm2m/moorfarm.png
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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The [DfT] document says every ‘pipeline’ road project for 2025 to 2030 which exceeds £500 million in costs, including the A120 scheme, will be shelved until a wider review on affordability.
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/202 ... ref=twtrec

This is big news that only seems to have been reported in relation to the A120. Other £500m+ schemes like the A1 Doncaster to Darrington, A27 Lewes to Polegate, A5 Hinkley to Tamworth and M1 Leicester Western Access would seemingly be affected.

I wouldn't be confident in £400m schemes like Lofthouse, A19 Junctions, Chichester, Dover Access, Tees Crossing or Hopgrove either, given inflation.

But it seems a strange time for savage cuts to road schemes. It's exactly the kind of thing that could alienate local MPs or party members. This document must be pre-leadership race and nothing from it was actually announced. It may have been overtaken by events.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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jackal wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:32
The [DfT] document says every ‘pipeline’ road project for 2025 to 2030 which exceeds £500 million in costs, including the A120 scheme, will be shelved until a wider review on affordability.
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/202 ... ref=twtrec

This is big news that only seems to have been reported in relation to the A120. Other £500m+ schemes like the A1 Doncaster to Darrington, A27 Lewes to Polegate, A5 Hinkley to Tamworth and M1 Leicester Western Access would seemingly be affected.

I wouldn't be confident in £400m schemes like Lofthouse, A19 Junctions, Chichester, Dover Access, Tees Crossing or Hopgrove either, given inflation.

But it seems a strange time for savage cuts to road schemes. It's exactly the kind of thing that could alienate local MPs or party members. This document must be pre-leadership race and nothing from it was actually announced. It may have been overtaken by events.
Although with most of these being in early stages, they are fairly easy wins in terms of headlines and not many will just see it is a few million pa per scheme of consultants' turnover being cut or more likely deferred.
Every roads programme from the mid 1970's (and maybe before) has gone the same way so why would this one be any different?
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal »

RichardA35 wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 13:12
jackal wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:32
The [DfT] document says every ‘pipeline’ road project for 2025 to 2030 which exceeds £500 million in costs, including the A120 scheme, will be shelved until a wider review on affordability.
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/202 ... ref=twtrec

This is big news that only seems to have been reported in relation to the A120. Other £500m+ schemes like the A1 Doncaster to Darrington, A27 Lewes to Polegate, A5 Hinkley to Tamworth and M1 Leicester Western Access would seemingly be affected.

I wouldn't be confident in £400m schemes like Lofthouse, A19 Junctions, Chichester, Dover Access, Tees Crossing or Hopgrove either, given inflation.

But it seems a strange time for savage cuts to road schemes. It's exactly the kind of thing that could alienate local MPs or party members. This document must be pre-leadership race and nothing from it was actually announced. It may have been overtaken by events.
Although with most of these being in early stages, they are fairly easy wins in terms of headlines and not many will just see it is a few million pa per scheme of consultants' turnover being cut or more likely deferred.
Every roads programme from the mid 1970's (and maybe before) has gone the same way so why would this one be any different?
If you look at the schemes I listed, the £500m+ ones are all, as you say, at a very early stage, without any recent public information other than that they're looking at them.

Some of the £400m schemes are like that, but others like Lofthouse (which has had a consultation and consultation report) and Chichester and Hopgrove (which have had some public engagement and discussion of options) are further along.

So a more positive spin on this would be that they've stopped giving consultancies money for schemes that are very far from being fundable, and concentrating on schemes that are a bit further along and that might realistically start construction in 2025-30.

Culling schemes is something that happens at mid-term or change of government - a campaign (whether a general election or leadership race) is the last time you want bad news. Not to mention that right now there is a dead duck chancellor and effectively no leadership to make such decisions! So I stand by the view that the leaked document is pre-leadership race and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
JonB2028 wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 13:50 Another scheme "paused"
https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... of-oxford/
Yes, though this was not a pipeline scheme and as there is no date on that it may have been paused weeks or months ago.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by wrinkly »

JonB2028 wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 13:50 Another scheme "paused"
https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... of-oxford/
Wasn't that itself a scheme introduced as a substitute after the dropping of the Oxford-Cambridge Expressway? (Though Black Cat to Caxton Gibbet continued, meaning that there will be an expressway-type road anyway from Cambridge to M1 J13).
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal »

The A34 one is like the New Tees Crossing - a bit of a mystery scheme that isn't mentioned in the RIS2 document (not as RIS3 pipeline or anything else).

With the NTC that may be because it is local authority developed, though it was always expected to be handed over. With the A34 I think it's just that it was speculative and post-RIS3, and announced as a sop after the expressway was cancelled.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by KeithW »

As I understand it the list for RIS3 wont be finalised until 2024. With inflation running at a high level and a new government in prospect I am not surprised decisions are being put back. The have already been rumblings from the IMF at the level of government spending.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by A320Driver »

Well the government have just approved a £20bn nuclear power station at Sizewell C so there is clearly money to be spent….
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:23Well the government have just approved a £20bn nuclear power station at Sizewell C so there is clearly money to be spent…
Presumably pushing it through before the next PM/government can put it under review or scrap it?
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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^The deadline was today, and had already been pushed back twice. A leadership election isn't supposed to mean that the government goes on holiday for three months...
A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:23 Well the government have just approved a £20bn nuclear power station at Sizewell C so there is clearly money to be spent….
Most of that is paid by EDF/the French govt - or really by electricity consumers, as the developer is allowed to raise electricity prices to pay for construction.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by KeithW »

A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:23 Well the government have just approved a £20bn nuclear power station at Sizewell C so there is clearly money to be spent….
That has been in the pipeline for some time and we really need it if we want affordable reliable power.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by A320Driver »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:58
A320Driver wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:23 Well the government have just approved a £20bn nuclear power station at Sizewell C so there is clearly money to be spent….
That has been in the pipeline for some time and we really need it
Could easily say the same about Stonehenge! I really fear that if it doesn't go ahead now then it will never get done.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal »

Info from the updated pipeline:

Short Description / Procurement Start Date (Actual Or Best Estimate) / Contract Commencement Date / Value Of New Contract (Excluding Options)
Manchester Northwest Quadrant - Construction 01/04/2024 30/10/2024 £3,000,000,000.00
Lower Thames Crossing Tunnels and Approaches Contract 01/09/2022 01/03/2023 £2,300,000,000.00
Lower Thames Crossing - Roads North of the Thames 01/11/2022 01/05/2023 £1,300,000,000.00
A1 Doncaster to Darrington 01/04/2023 24/10/2023 £1,265,000,000.00
A303 Amesbury to Berwick Down - Mainworks Not Held In System Not Held In System £1,250,000,000.00
A27 Lewes to Polegate 01/01/2024 03/06/2024 £880,000,000.00
A5 Hinkley to Tamworth 01/10/2023 01/04/2024 £851,000,000.00
A66 Northern Trans-Pennine Project: Construction Contract- Design and Build Packages 01/06/2022 08/12/2022 £773,000,000.00
Lower Thames Crossing - Kent Roads 01/11/2022 01/05/2023 £600,000,000.00
Package B9 - A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Not Held In System Not Held In System £569,975,430.42
M1 Leicester Western Access 01/05/2023 01/11/2023 £564,000,000.00
A120 Braintree to A12 A120 Braintree (D&B) 01/09/2022 31/03/2023 £513,000,000.00
M1/M62 Lofthouse Junction 01/06/2022 01/12/2022 £447,000,000.00
A19 Junctions North of Newcastle 01/09/2024 03/03/2025 £424,000,000.00
A27 Chichester 01/01/2024 03/06/2024 £410,000,000.00
A2 Dover Access 01/07/2022 18/01/2023 £399,000,000.00
Package B16 - A19 New Tees Crossing - Standalone Not Held In System Not Held In System £396,000,000.00
A64 Hopgrove 01/05/2022 08/11/2022 £391,000,000.00
Places of Relative Safety Retrofit programme project Not Held In System Not Held In System £390,800,000.00
A417 Missing Link to Air Balloon Not Held In System Not Held In System £379,060,000.00
A12/A14 Copdock Interchange 01/03/2023 01/09/2023 £321,000,000.00
Package B11 - A5036 Princes Way - Access to Port of Liverpool Not Held In System Not Held In System £315,008,259.06
Tilbury Port Access 01/09/2024 03/03/2025 £200,000,000.00
Manchester North West Quadrant - Technical Partner Not Held In System Not Held In System £150,000,000.00
Manchester Northwest Quadrant – Technical Partner Not Held In System Not Held In System £150,000,000.00
A2 Brenley Corner 01/07/2022 04/01/2023 £139,000,000.00
M1 Leeds Eastern Gateway 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £115,000,000.00
Package A3 - M3 J9 Improvement Not Held In System Not Held In System £113,924,048.04
A404 Bisham Junction 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £110,000,000.00
A11 Fiveways Junction 01/10/2024 01/04/2025 £101,000,000.00
A404/M40 Junction 4 High Wycombe 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £97,000,000.00
A483 Pant-Llanymynech 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £93,000,000.00
M6 Junction 22 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £93,000,000.00
Lower Thames Crossing & A303 Stonehenge - Specialist Security Services 2022 Not Held In System Not Held In System £90,000,000.00
M60 South East Junctions Improvements 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £83,000,000.00
A38 Trerulefoot to Carkeel Safety Package 01/09/2022 01/03/2023 £70,000,000.00
A303 Stonehenge (Amesbury to Berwick Down) Delivery Assurance Partner Not Held In System Not Held In System £60,000,000.00
A47/A1101 Elm Road Junction 01/01/2023 01/06/2023 £55,000,000.00
Lower Thames Crossing - Owner Coordinated Insurance Policy (OCIP) Not Held In System Not Held In System £50,000,000.00
Package A1 - A52 Nottingham Junctions (larger) Not Held In System Not Held In System £50,000,000.00
M11 Junction 13 Cambridge West 01/01/2023 01/06/2023 £49,000,000.00
M6 Junction 15 Potteries Southern Access 01/09/2024 01/03/2025 £46,000,000.00
Severn Resilience Package 01/07/2022 01/01/2023 £45,000,000.00
Package A2 - A46 Coventry Junctions Upgrade (Walsgrave) Not Held In System Not Held In System £43,773,488.68
M27 Southampton Access Junction 3 Not Held In System Not Held In System £40,300,000.00
M20 Brock Moveable Barrier Permanent Solution Stage 2 (via CCS RM6088) Not Held In System Not Held In System £35,000,000.00
Package A11 - A47 Great Yarmouth Not Held In System Not Held In System £34,000,000.00
A120 Braintree to A12 (Design Stage 3 & 4 Works) Not Held In System Not Held In System £30,000,000.00
Package A5 - M621 Junction Improvements Not Held In System Not Held In System £27,588,000.00
A3/A247 Ripley South 01/11/2023 01/05/2024 £23,000,000.00
Lower Thames Crossing - Technical Assurance Not Held In System Not Held In System £20,000,000.00
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