SW M25 Relief

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JammyDodge
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by JammyDodge »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 00:55 Perhaps the amount of traffic using this stretch of M25 might decrease a bit when the Lower Thames Crossing opens?

This section is opposite that of the Dartford Crossing. The Dartford Crossing is forever causing problems and costs money to use. So, if for example you are coming up the M23 and heading somewhere north of London, which way do you go? Anti-clockwise where you pay to go through a tunnel, or clockwise where the road is free?

If traffic eased at Dartford (and the tolls were taken away) then there might be a reduction of traffic using the Heathrow stretch. Of course, that would mean more traffic crossing from Kent to Essex, so it would be swings and roundabouts.....
I don't think that the tolls will ever be taken away in my lifetime (up to the year 2100), nor do I think they should
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Peter Freeman »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 00:55 Perhaps the amount of traffic using this stretch of M25 might decrease a bit when the Lower Thames Crossing opens?
Yes. Opening any new major route causes traffic redistribution. The magnitude of the effect is inversely proportional to distance from the new route.

Removing the Dartford toll, with or without the LTC open, would slightly reduce pressure on the SW M25. Imposing tolls on the SW M25 would produce the same result! None of these things cancel the need for SW M25 improvement.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Big L »

It's not a toll, it's a congestion charge. Surely once the new road is open and the congestion vanishes the congestion charge will be removed.


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Greg07
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Greg07 »

How about a different type of 'congestion charge' to keep the M25 for through traffic and lessen the burden on it of local traffic.
Say a £10 charge for any traffic entering the M25 from 'local" junctions and leaving the motorway from another 'local' junction. This would not apply to traffic joining or leaving the M25 from the M23, A3, M3, M4, M40 etc. The charge would also need to be applied to nearby 'local' junctions such as the Wisley A3 junction which sees lots of local traffic joining and holding up longer distance traffic.
.. Bet that will be controversial !! Could even start a whole new thread on ' local traffic using major motorways' .. !
Last edited by Greg07 on Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by MotorwayPanda »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 00:55 Perhaps the amount of traffic using this stretch of M25 might decrease a bit when the Lower Thames Crossing opens?

This section is opposite that of the Dartford Crossing. The Dartford Crossing is forever causing problems and costs money to use. So, if for example you are coming up the M23 and heading somewhere north of London, which way do you go? Anti-clockwise where you pay to go through a tunnel, or clockwise where the road is free?

If traffic eased at Dartford (and the tolls were taken away) then there might be a reduction of traffic using the Heathrow stretch. Of course, that would mean more traffic crossing from Kent to Essex, so it would be swings and roundabouts.....
Any improvements to the M25 are likely to provide some relief in one way or another. And while, yes, some journeys may be more incentivised to use the Dartford Crossing, the majority of journeys from the south are either getting to the M3, M4, Heathrow, the M40, or the M1 (which is still quicker to reach via the M25 clockwise). If you want to make a real difference to traffic levels, you would need to make improvements along these journeys, either to the M25 itself, or other options such as:
- New SW bypass, either HQDC or motorway
- Improvements to existing routes such as the A404 and A3095
- New orbital rail links in and around London to Heathrow and places like Guildford and Woking
- More high quality orbital roads within London.

Other improvements are always welcome, such as the LTC, but these are the only ones that could realistically change the traffic situation.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Greg07 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 09:33 The charge would also need to be applied to nearby 'local' junctions such as the Wisley A3 junction which sees lots of local traffic joining and holding up longer distance traffic.
Out of curiosity what route would you suggest traffic from (say) Painshill or Wisley take, especially if heading afar? Traffic that originates from near to a junction is not necessarily local. In particular, traffic joining the A3 from RHS Wisley may well be travelling home some distance!

You also have the added problem that adding amotorway often results in the downgrading of the obvious non-motorway through routes... locally, Farnborough to Fleet using M3 J4-J4A is significantly faster that trying to get between them any other way.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Micro The Maniac »

MotorwayPanda wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 09:38 Any improvements to the M25 are likely to provide some relief in one way or another. And while, yes, some journeys may be more incentivised to use the Dartford Crossing, the majority of journeys from the south are either getting to the M3, M4, Heathrow, the M40, or the M1 (which is still quicker to reach via the M25 clockwise).
Or as often cited, the optimum route along the south coast from Dover to Southampton (and points West) is M20, M26, M25, M3

An improvement of the A259/A27/M27 would make a significant impact to the M25, IMHO
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Greg07 »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:29
Greg07 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 09:33 The charge would also need to be applied to nearby 'local' junctions such as the Wisley A3 junction which sees lots of local traffic joining and holding up longer distance traffic.
Out of curiosity what route would you suggest traffic from (say) Painshill or Wisley take, especially if heading afar? Traffic that originates from near to a junction is not necessarily local. In particular, traffic joining the A3 from RHS Wisley may well be travelling home some distance!
Yes, difficult .. My suggestion was that 'local' junctions have motorway exit cameras as well so that only traffic going from a local junction to another local junction is charged. Not Traffic going to of from a local junction from afar.

Also yes, I am afraid I am guilty as I make a journey from near Folkestone to Portsmouth about twice a week that I use the M25 for because it takes half the time it would to use the A259 along the coast. I don't want to be anywhere near London.. But I am ! Even the trip from Folkestone to Brighton is usually faster on the M25 than driving along the coast directly.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by MotorwayPanda »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:33
MotorwayPanda wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 09:38 Any improvements to the M25 are likely to provide some relief in one way or another. And while, yes, some journeys may be more incentivised to use the Dartford Crossing, the majority of journeys from the south are either getting to the M3, M4, Heathrow, the M40, or the M1 (which is still quicker to reach via the M25 clockwise).
Or as often cited, the optimum route along the south coast from Dover to Southampton (and points West) is M20, M26, M25, M3

An improvement of the A259/A27/M27 would make a significant impact to the M25, IMHO
Interesting. You could definitely make an argument for extending the M27 eastward along the south coast, to Worthing at least, and possibly even all the way to Brighton. Any further than that would never get approved, but if it was to be extended the whole way to the M20, it would effectively solve all traffic problems on the south coast and potentially also the M25.

The A27, despite being D2 for much of its length, would be unfit for upgrading to motorway standard however, due to the amount of development along the routes around Chichester and Worthing. Grade separation and widening looks very difficult in this area. Therefore it would require lots of new bypasses and new stretches of road to function as a high quality route.

Without any real monetary incentive, it's unlikely that we will ever see a new south coast route, and I do believe that there are better, less disruptive and less expensive options to help relieve the M25. However, I agree that general improvements to the A27 and A259 would be more than welcome.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by A320Driver »

thatapanydude wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 15:14 Dual the A243 to Chessington then link up to the A3. I would then D4 the A3 and give free-flow westbound access to the A309. This can take journeys from e.g. Leatherhead to Sunbury off the M25 and M3. Link below with a map.
A neat idea that was proposed by Surrey County Council back in the mid-90s. They proposed GSJing the A243 at A24 and both M25 roundabouts, and then online dualling to Malden Rushett (easy) before bypassing to the west to join A3 at a limited access junction. However, as with many schemes, you’d just push the bottleneck further up to Hook junction where the A3 reduces to D2 through the junction and without a rebuild of this junction (v. expensive!) the traffic would be atrocious.
This would also help with J10, and eliminate the need for free flow links between A3N—M25E.

The Leatherhead GSJs will never happen, dualling of the A243 might, and there are rumblings of the Malden Rushett BP being back on the agenda, itself a nightmare most of the day.

Agree with your comments on A309/A3 junction, western links need to be provided.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by KeithW »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:33
Or as often cited, the optimum route along the south coast from Dover to Southampton (and points West) is M20, M26, M25, M3

An improvement of the A259/A27/M27 would make a significant impact to the M25, IMHO
Of course but improving the A259 alone would be a huge task. Folkestone to Pevensey is 50 miles of predominantly low quality S2 road that snakes around the south coast passing through Hythe, Dymchurch, New Romney, Rye, Hastings and Bexhill which can take as much as 2 hours.

The A27 from Pevensey to Brighton isnt much better. I lived in Lydd and the most reliable route to Brighton by far was A2070/M20/M26/M25/M23/A23 even though it was 40 miles longer. In winter the A259 was an option, in summer forget it.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Vierwielen »

Currently HMG get a huge revenue from excise duty of petrol. With electric cars set to rice considerably in number, that revenue stream will be cut off. It will be very difficult to tax electricity that is used to charge your car and not to tax electricity that is used to heat your home. One of the ways to collect money will be to have toll points at various locations around the country. Consider for example, a trip from London to Barnard Castle. ViaMichelin tells me that the distance is 400 km and that fuel is €1.55 per litre (About 250 miles and £1.35/litre). It also told me that the fuel cost for a hatchback is €38.90 (ie 25 litres). Excise duty is 57.95p/litre (+VAT giving 69p/litre), so on your trip to Barnard Castle, the government would lose £17.38. Applying a toll of 7p per mile would recoup that. The simplest way to recoup that would be to have number-plate recognition devices at regular intervals along the motorway and a fixed charge is made every time you pass one of those points. The money collected in such a way woudl have to compensate for those motorists who never passed a toll camera. The Irish have one such point on the M50, just north of the Liffey crossing where it costs €2.10 if you have a tag and €3.10 if you do not have a tag.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Micro The Maniac »

KeithW wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:44 Of course but improving the A259 alone would be a huge task.
But adding more lanes to the M25 is a huge task, which doesn't fix the problem.

There is a distinct lack of strategy.

In any sensible road system, a big picture would show that the south-coast needs an expressway (small E) linking Dover to Southampton, via Portsmouth... and that this should be a clear objective.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Scratchwood »

JammyDodge wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 01:14
Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 00:55 Perhaps the amount of traffic using this stretch of M25 might decrease a bit when the Lower Thames Crossing opens?

This section is opposite that of the Dartford Crossing. The Dartford Crossing is forever causing problems and costs money to use. So, if for example you are coming up the M23 and heading somewhere north of London, which way do you go? Anti-clockwise where you pay to go through a tunnel, or clockwise where the road is free?

If traffic eased at Dartford (and the tolls were taken away) then there might be a reduction of traffic using the Heathrow stretch. Of course, that would mean more traffic crossing from Kent to Essex, so it would be swings and roundabouts.....
I don't think that the tolls will ever be taken away in my lifetime (up to the year 2100), nor do I think they should
My issue with the toll is that it penalises people going one way around London on the M25/A282 route, but not the other

Imagine if the M60 had a toll section on one small section of it, traffic volumes around the M60 would be distorted to avoid that section.
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Herned »

Scratchwood wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:30 My issue with the toll is that it penalises people going one way around London on the M25/A282 route, but not the other

Imagine if the M60 had a toll section on one small section of it, traffic volumes around the M60 would be distorted to avoid that section.
Does it really though? There can't be many journeys which result in people choosing to go one way rather than the other - M23 to A1 or A10 perhaps it might swing it for one way or the other, but for most journeys the toll is annoying but far better than going around the longer way or through London. The numbers of actual journeys made every day which have a genuine choice must be a minute proportion of the total
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Gareth Thomas »

Peter Freeman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 05:59
Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 00:55 Perhaps the amount of traffic using this stretch of M25 might decrease a bit when the Lower Thames Crossing opens?
Yes. Opening any new major route causes traffic redistribution. The magnitude of the effect is inversely proportional to distance from the new route.

Removing the Dartford toll, with or without the LTC open, would slightly reduce pressure on the SW M25. Imposing tolls on the SW M25 would produce the same result! None of these things cancel the need for SW M25 improvement.
Oh, agreed, and if there were any traffic reduction due to improvements at Dartford then it would be a small one. But it was just a thought I had had since the two busiest sections of the road are at “3 o’clock” and “9 o’clock”, opposite each other.

Although, using the M25 today Junction 11 seemed to be the hot spot. Queues in both directions leading to it and clearer roads afterwards. Who knew Woking was the place to be? 😄
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Herned »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 22:36 Who knew Woking was the place to be? 😄
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Herned wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:40 Does it really though? There can't be many journeys which result in people choosing to go one way rather than the other - M23 to A1 or A10 perhaps it might swing it for one way or the other, but for most journeys the toll is annoying but far better than going around the longer way or through London. The numbers of actual journeys made every day which have a genuine choice must be a minute proportion of the total
Surely the same applies with the London Congestion charge... it's very basis is to discourage traffic driving through the middle, but to go around the outside.

Therefore vehicles go around the M25 rather than A4/A13 or A12/A102/A2 or the myriad of cross-London options.

OK, the CC is a different level, but certainly from the A3 or M3 I *always* go clockwise rather than anti-clockwise out of spite!
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 22:36 Although, using the M25 today Junction 11 seemed to be the hot spot. Queues in both directions leading to it and clearer roads afterwards. Who knew Woking was the place to be? 😄
Junction 11 is a hotspot because it's only three lanes through the junction... 90k+ AADT squeezing through with only ~5k AADT nett joiners or leavers on the lane drops/gains

I'm sure someone has the full breakdown
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Re: SW M25 Relief

Post by trickstat »

Herned wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:40
Scratchwood wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:30 My issue with the toll is that it penalises people going one way around London on the M25/A282 route, but not the other

Imagine if the M60 had a toll section on one small section of it, traffic volumes around the M60 would be distorted to avoid that section.
Does it really though? There can't be many journeys which result in people choosing to go one way rather than the other - M23 to A1 or A10 perhaps it might swing it for one way or the other, but for most journeys the toll is annoying but far better than going around the longer way or through London. The numbers of actual journeys made every day which have a genuine choice must be a minute proportion of the total
Living on the A1, before the bridge opened, me and my family always drove to the M23 via Heathrow. After the bridge opened, we preferred Dartford.
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