M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

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jackal
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M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by jackal »

I could have sworn there was a thread for this scheme but can't find it. But in any case, it's a 19 mile upgrade to ALR due to start in early 2023, with a £283m price tag.

While the extra capacity is certainly needed, I'm puzzled by the one-directional lane drops at J20, J24, and J25. I know what you're thinking, "ah, M62, that'll be for climbing lanes". But if I'm reading it right the extra lane is downhill at J24 and J25! I hope I'm wrong.

General arrangement: https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/ro ... dacted.pdf
Scheme page: https://highwaysengland.co.uk/our-work/ ... 0e22e3ba-1
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Bryn666
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

The J24 lane drop already exists and given traffic frequently backs up onto the M62 from Ainley Top even post-signalisation I think removing this would be insanity.

J25 likewise, a lot of traffic leaves here for not only Brighouse, but also the eastern side of Huddersfield, Mirfield, Dewsbury, and those doing the Flockton corner cut go this way to get to the A637 from the B6118. It does back up onto the mainline a lot, mainly because J25 remains unsignalised and has ridiculous circulatory speeds preventing entry. It's also one of the worst junctions in Calderdale for KSIs.

However I can't really justify the A627(M) - if it's busy enough westbound it's also busy enough eastbound to stay as a lane drop.
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thomas417
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by thomas417 »

Seriously are we still ploughing ahead with ALR schemes!?
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by Phil »

thomas417 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 16:46 Seriously are we still ploughing ahead with ALR schemes!?
Yup!

The rationale which gave rise to them in the first place is still sound i.e. widening is totally within the highway boundary so avoids the need for those pesky public enquiries and hold ups by environmentalists. As a result they are much quicker to build and thus the voters... sorry I mean motorists get to see results quickly and the Politicians can bask in the glory of having eased congestion rather than potentially let the next batch take the credit.

As far as I can tell the "we will never build a motorway with a hard shoulder again" mentality uttered by a senior bod at Highways England when Smart Motorways were first thought up is alive and well in the corridors of power.

The very real criticisms of safety have largely been nullified by an increase in laybys and more importantly radar based stopped vehicle detection technology. Of course what happens when there is a power outage and all this fancy electronic kit is dead is a different matter...... and I bet that resilient power supplies aren't something HE / NA / whatever Boris wants to call them this week have considered....

What has been dumped is Dynamic Hard Shoulder running where the hard shoulder may or may not be used as a running lane at certain times of the day with conversion to the ALR type planned.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by NICK 647063 »

thomas417 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 16:46 Seriously are we still ploughing ahead with ALR schemes!?
I have no issue with ALR I think personally sad as any death is it was a case of a death on a normal motorway and nothing said, death on a smart motorway and everybody is on it! I find them safe enough and with improved technology added and more emergency refuge areas added, certainly much clearer than the dynamic hard shoulder running which as soon as the HS is needed a 60 limit is added!

I suspect unlike most other smart motorway sections on the M1 the M62 will keep all road lighting?
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

I can't wait for the mega one-size-fits-all concrete foundations they have for ALR schemes to be built on the peat bogs. That's a lot of weight on very soft ground, bearing in mind the whole reason the M62 splits up there is so it doesn't sink into the bog...
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by darkcape »

I didn't think bogs were particularly deep so I'm sure the piles will be fine? Some gantry piles I've done were 30m+ deep. Whereas the M62 formation may only be 5-10m if you include the earthworks? (Never driven it so just guessing from photos)
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by stevepuma »

NICK 647063 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 22:03
thomas417 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 16:46 Seriously are we still ploughing ahead with ALR schemes!?
I have no issue with ALR I think personally sad as any death is it was a case of a death on a normal motorway and nothing said, death on a smart motorway and everybody is on it! I find them safe enough and with improved technology added and more emergency refuge areas added, certainly much clearer than the dynamic hard shoulder running which as soon as the HS is needed a 60 limit is added!

I suspect unlike most other smart motorway sections on the M1 the M62 will keep all road lighting?
Hmmm, I USED to be in this camp too, until one evening gentle trundling down the M6 at about 70 in lane one I saw hazard lights ahead.

Lane 1 and 2 had hazard lights going, lane 3 and 4 were more or less empty - it was late evening, but I (wrongly) assumed the motorway was coming to a stop.
As I continued braking, the traffic in lane 2 kept moving (50ish?) and it quickly became impossible to swap lanes as I slowed to a stop. :o

The next 30-45 seconds were the longest of my life as I braced for impact from behind.
Once I had a "buffer" of 10 or so vehicles stopped behind, I then found myself with insufficient accelerating room to move into the still freely flowing lane 2.
Truly frightening being stopped on a motorway with cars and trucks whizzing past at 50+ just 3 feet from your door...

I was "imprisoned" for maybe 3 or 4 minutes until I could see a gap large enough to move into (cars behind me were frequently moving into the gap I wanted...) Once "free", at the front of the queue was an unfortunate soul in an Astra stopped with hazards on awaiting help.

The upshot is that now I will very reluctantly use lane 1 of an ALR motorway, as it's the "default" lane to break down in...
Middle lane hogging is one of my pet hates, but an ALR motorway is encouraging me to become one.
And if your not careful a 4 lane ALR very quickly becomes a three lane motorway, just like the M6 bypass around Preston where you are lucky to see the odd truck in lane 1, with lanes 3 & 4 rammed solid with cars barely a vehicle length between them...

So no, I am no longer a fan of motorways without hard shoulders, even though I am well aware that hard shoulders are very dangerous in themselves.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by ellandback »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 21:12 The J24 lane drop already exists and given traffic frequently backs up onto the M62 from Ainley Top even post-signalisation I think removing this would be insanity.

J25 likewise, a lot of traffic leaves here for not only Brighouse, but also the eastern side of Huddersfield, Mirfield, Dewsbury, and those doing the Flockton corner cut go this way to get to the A637 from the B6118. It does back up onto the mainline a lot, mainly because J25 remains unsignalised and has ridiculous circulatory speeds preventing entry. It's also one of the worst junctions in Calderdale for KSIs.
As a regular user, I agree. The lane drop arrangement provides some limited degree of protection for traffic queuing to get off the motorway, which happens frequently at j24 and j25 westbound but pretty much never (barring some exceptional incident) in the other direction.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by jackal »

ellandback wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 16:11
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 21:12 The J24 lane drop already exists and given traffic frequently backs up onto the M62 from Ainley Top even post-signalisation I think removing this would be insanity.

J25 likewise, a lot of traffic leaves here for not only Brighouse, but also the eastern side of Huddersfield, Mirfield, Dewsbury, and those doing the Flockton corner cut go this way to get to the A637 from the B6118. It does back up onto the mainline a lot, mainly because J25 remains unsignalised and has ridiculous circulatory speeds preventing entry. It's also one of the worst junctions in Calderdale for KSIs.
As a regular user, I agree. The lane drop arrangement provides some limited degree of protection for traffic queuing to get off the motorway, which happens frequently at j24 and j25 westbound but pretty much never (barring some exceptional incident) in the other direction.
The proposals remove the westbound lane drop at J25. They introduce a new eastbound lane drop there.

In any case, it seems a bit mad to me that they'd plan for traffic queuing back onto the mainline. Maybe that's a bit safer with a lane drop but it's still a long way from safe. These junctions have vanilla configurations that could easily be improved with segregated left turns and more of the beloved stacking space.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

Reports are that National England Agency for Highways grand plan to shorten the M27 J9 slip road has gone as well as predicted with queues now back onto the mainline.

I wonder if the lack of merge space for the J25 eastbound entry is what's prompted this, as that is currently a tiger tail lane gain pushed right against the left hand bend towards Hartshead.

Either way, it once again demonstrates that these people just do not understand junctions. I'd have left J25 as a lane drop on both sides as it's busy enough to warrant it as is J24 westbound.

That leaves J20 as the real WTF.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by OliverH »

I wonder what they will do about this section as it has three on one side and four on the other. you can also see on GSV that there are two types of gantry which suggest that one side was widened to four lanes, and they, for whatever reason, decided not to the other side when it was later decided to install gantries.
Last edited by OliverH on Sat Sep 11, 2021 13:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by jackal »

OliverH wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:56 I wonder what they will do about this section as it has three on one side and four on the other. you can also see on GSV that there are two types of gantry which suggest that one side was widened to four lanes, and they, for whatever reason, decided not to the other side when it was later decided to install gantries.
Four lanes in each direction. Eastbound already has a climbing lane so it will not be ALRed and retains the HS (hence 'controlled motorway'). Likewise for 24 to 25 westbound. See plans in OP.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by OliverH »

jackal wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 13:01
OliverH wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:56 I wonder what they will do about this section as it has three on one side and four on the other. you can also see on GSV that there are two types of gantry which suggest that one side was widened to four lanes, and they, for whatever reason, decided not to the other side when it was later decided to install gantries.
Four lanes in each direction. Eastbound already has a climbing lane so it will not be ALRed and retains the HS (hence 'controlled motorway'). See plans in OP.
So that means that the other side will either have Refuge Areas or will be widened so that it still has a Hard Sholder.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by jackal »

Refuges... like I say, see plans in OP.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by OliverH »

jackal wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 13:08 Refuges... like I say, see plans in OP.
thanks
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by Duple »

I wonder how over budget this will get to, shame none of the team behind M6 Jnc 15-13 are involved, they've done a good job of that so far..
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by jackal »

This scheme was put on hold in January 2022 along with other smart motorway schemes yet to start construction. They are still installing concrete barriers.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:18 This scheme was put on hold in January 2022 along with other smart motorway schemes yet to start construction. They are still installing concrete barriers.
Hopefully not across the 21-25 section, as that'll play havoc should there be snow drifts. There's a reason it has a wire rope fence.
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Re: M62 junction 20 to 25 smart motorway

Post by jackal »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:33
jackal wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:18 This scheme was put on hold in January 2022 along with other smart motorway schemes yet to start construction. They are still installing concrete barriers.
Hopefully not across the 21-25 section, as that'll play havoc should there be snow drifts. There's a reason it has a wire rope fence.
They just say "At this location on the M62 we are planning to upgrade the existing central reservation barrier to concrete, which will deliver safety benefits." https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... %20England.
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