Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

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Norfolktolancashire
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:51
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 09:24
domcoop wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 17:10

Just a guess, but Whitebirk roundabout is huge for what it is, so presumably the main route would have been a flyover directly over it and along what is now Carl Fogarty Way into the town centre, with the stubs going off to join the roundabout? Although how much traffic were they anticipating on that roundabout to justify a GSJ, even in the early 90s?

[EDIT]

In fact, a quick further search shows that the 1991 Statutory Instrument, which refers to a "deposited plan" which I can't view online, refers to the junction as:-

This was amended in 1992, by another Statutory Instrument, so say:-


So the deposited plan from 1991 should show it, and then obviously somebody had second thoughts but it was felt, for whatever reason, to keep the stubs in just in case they reverted the original plan at a later date.

Like I say, that's just a guess though!
Those SIs seem to just describe the two sliproads as they exist, and not any sort of flyover or underpass of Whitebirk Roundabout. The description is of two roads, one eastbound and one westbound, connecting the M65 with the roundabout, and nothing more - that's what was built. The plans attached are likely to be "line plans" that just show the route of each sliproad and they're unlikely to be detailed enough to show something like the carriageway stub.

The roundabout is laid out for grade separation because it was built as part of the M65 between junctions 6 and 7, which opened in 1984. At that time the plan was for the motorway to continue west towards Preston on a route through the middle of Blackburn, so the roundabout's design is intended for the motorway to fly over the top on its way to the town centre. You can see the original layout of the junction here.

The westward extension was then revised to take a route around the south of Blackburn, which is why the motorway now has a sharp turn at junction 6. The westbound exit sliproad to junction 6 dates from 1997 when the southern bypass was built and replaces the direct line the motorway took before then, so the carriageway stub was built at a time when there was no longer any plan for the M65 to fly over Whitebirk Roundabout.

There's a bit more detail on the M65 around Blackburn on a certain website here.
The route through Blackburn was dead after the cancellation of the western half of the M65 in 1980, any road scheme into Blackburn from then on would be a local authority scheme. The problem then became one of how do you end the motorway at J6 in a fashion that gets traffic onto the A6119. A smaller circular roundabout would have presumably lacked the capacity to cope so they went with the giant circulatory as a stop gap.

It was 1987 before the southern bypass was back on the cards and even then it was still going to be all-purpose until the 1991 SI listed above.

And of course, none of this explains that stump :lol:
A bit of a long shot, could it have been a proposed location for a Highways Agency/England/whatever vehicle check site? I know there was one placed at the "end" of the same M65 construction scheme in the 90's near Walton Summit.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 14:49
OliverH wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 22:27 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.46333 ... authuser=0 = ?
maby it was going to be a half hamburger or banana.
Haden Circus has redundant surfacing for when Birmingham hosted the Superprix. It was known as the Halfords Hairpin.
Yes, it was a fully built roundabout before that. It's now highly unlikely that the Super Prix will ever be revived (I went in 1989) but some of the temporary features such as removable traffic islands and kerbing, and the holes for the Armco, remained for quite a long time after it was discontinued. Haden Circus is, I think, the last visible reminder of the race.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by SBRoxMan »

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.31469 ... !1e3?hl=en

How about this junction? It was originally meant to be extended to circle east Runcorn, but that never happened.

Later on, this junction was then going to be used to connect to the M56 via the proposed junction 11a, but that was cancelled last year.

This poor junction just can't seem to catch a break.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Steven »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 23:07
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 14:49
OliverH wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 22:27 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.46333 ... authuser=0 = ?
maby it was going to be a half hamburger or banana.
Haden Circus has redundant surfacing for when Birmingham hosted the Superprix. It was known as the Halfords Hairpin.
Yes, it was a fully built roundabout before that. It's now highly unlikely that the Super Prix will ever be revived (I went in 1989) but some of the temporary features such as removable traffic islands and kerbing, and the holes for the Armco, remained for quite a long time after it was discontinued. Haden Circus is, I think, the last visible reminder of the race.
According to StreetView, some of the holes in the pavement for the Armco along the eastbound side of the A4540 were still there earlier this year.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris5156 »

Have we had the A214 at Wandsworth yet?

How about the West Cross Route, both north and south? The southern end has had most of its wide central reserve paved over in the last couple of decades, but was originally built with three-lane sliproads to either side and a gap in the middle. If it had ever been completed, the sliproads would have been narrowed to two-lane to make space in the middle for a D3 flyover.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by SBRoxMan »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 15:59 Have we had the A214 at Wandsworth yet?

How about the West Cross Route, both north and south? The southern end has had most of its wide central reserve paved over in the last couple of decades, but was originally built with three-lane sliproads to either side and a gap in the middle. If it had ever been completed, the sliproads would have been narrowed to two-lane to make space in the middle for a D3 flyover.
What road was the Wandsworth Roundabout meant to accommodate?
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by JammyDodge »

SBRoxMan wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 16:10
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 15:59 Have we had the A214 at Wandsworth yet?

How about the West Cross Route, both north and south? The southern end has had most of its wide central reserve paved over in the last couple of decades, but was originally built with three-lane sliproads to either side and a gap in the middle. If it had ever been completed, the sliproads would have been narrowed to two-lane to make space in the middle for a D3 flyover.
What road was the Wandsworth Roundabout meant to accommodate?
A flyover, onto the Townmead Road Link, according to this Ringways article
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris Bertram »

Steven wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 15:53
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 23:07
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 14:49 Haden Circus has redundant surfacing for when Birmingham hosted the Superprix. It was known as the Halfords Hairpin.
Yes, it was a fully built roundabout before that. It's now highly unlikely that the Super Prix will ever be revived (I went in 1989) but some of the temporary features such as removable traffic islands and kerbing, and the holes for the Armco, remained for quite a long time after it was discontinued. Haden Circus is, I think, the last visible reminder of the race.
According to StreetView, some of the holes in the pavement for the Armco along the eastbound side of the A4540 were still there earlier this year.
Ah, could be, but I admit that I rarely walk along there. Bristol Street has seen a lot of work in the last couple of years, including the installation of a cycle superhighway, that will have removed any holes that remained along there, and the redesign of the junction with the Middleway meant that the removable traffic islands and kerbs there were done away with.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by RichardA626 »

I remember in the 1980s my Brother worked out the layout for a Manchester Grand Prix in an old A-Z which I still have.

It would be impossible to use the route these days as many of the streets have tramlines on them & Cannon Street has vanished under the Arndale Centre extension!
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by 2 Sheds »

ForestChav wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 21:57
Truvelo wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 21:44
the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 13:33 Sheesh! Three pages and noone's mentioned Denton Island (M67/M60) yet. :o

And my favourite overdone junction A617 Rainworth bypass
The original plans for Denton Island are in the wiki.

Rainworth has mystified me ever since it was built. I have found absolutely nothing online or at archives/libraries showing what was intended. Clearly the southern bypass of Mansfield was meant to be something better but the Rainworth Bypass was a local authority scheme built in an era where GSJ's were long consigned to history.
The thing which baffles me more about Rainworth is the east end of the bypass. It just dies out short of the actual end where it meets the B6020, I guess logically the dual could've met the A614, but then it's offloading onto 3 S2s, and improving the road towards Newark is probably needed but not an easy job. It seems a bit odd it was built dualled to begin with, but then maybe bigger was planned for the MARR and they never thought it effective to redraw the plans.

Of course, the A617 didn't initially leave Rainworth in that direction either, but that's another story. Much better it was diverted off the initial route.
Almost every junction on MARR is inadequate for peak hour eastbound traffic with long tails building, particularly at the roundabout at the west end of Rainworth bypass. They’ve played around with lane markings on the roundabout but it’s done little to reduce queues and delays. Even Notts CC with its penchant to spend on speed cameras rather than junction improvements will have to do something before many more years have passed.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by 2 Sheds »

I once asked a senior Highways Agency project manager why the new bridges built when 5 A1 roundabouts were converted to GSJs, were not made large enough to accommodate a future third lane on each carriageway. The answer I was given was that they could not compulsorily purchase land for future schemes which might or might not happen. If this is correct it would explain why there aren’t many more examples to list on this thread.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by OliverH »

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.62764 ... authuser=0

now the A19 goes to the west. why is this here?
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by SouthWest Philip »

OliverH wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 23:05 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.62764 ... authuser=0

now the A19 goes to the west. why is this here?
Isn't this an unusual case of where the flyover was in place but subsequently removed after the A19 was diverted?
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Truvelo »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 23:10
OliverH wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 23:05 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.62764 ... authuser=0

now the A19 goes to the west. why is this here?
Isn't this an unusual case of where the flyover was in place but subsequently removed after the A19 was diverted?
Yes, the flyover was built with the intention of the route further south being grade separated. The original plans are here with north being to the right. Eventually the decision was taken to build a new route to the west so the flyover was removed and no upgrade of the existing route was ever undertaken.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by haymansafc »

SBRoxMan wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 15:24 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.31469 ... !1e3?hl=en

How about this junction? It was originally meant to be extended to circle east Runcorn, but that never happened.

Later on, this junction was then going to be used to connect to the M56 via the proposed junction 11a, but that was cancelled last year.

This poor junction just can't seem to catch a break.
Indeed. In one of the proposals I saw, the westbound off-slip was supposed to go here - which would make it rather short unless they started it directly past the Premier Inn. Even then, I'd imagine space would still be pretty tight.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by KeithW »

haymansafc wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 18:06
Indeed. In one of the proposals I saw, the westbound off-slip was supposed to go here - which would make it rather short unless they started it directly past the Premier Inn. Even then, I'd imagine space would still be pretty tight.
The problem is that the A19 at the time, now Wolviston Road, was already heavily developed south of the roundabour and was an S4 with lots of at grade junctions. The only solution was a new bypass to the west. That new bypass is now being widened to D3.

After that now removed flyover you soon found yourself here.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by xfield »

Bredbury - the junction is sized to allow the A6M to cross the roundabout and then merge into the North facing M60 - explaining why the infamous right hand merge is done here when joining the motorway - as the merge was intended to run into the A6M, then merge with the M60.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by RichardA626 »

xfield wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:07 Bredbury - the junction is sized to allow the A6M to cross the roundabout and then merge into the North facing M60 - explaining why the infamous right hand merge is done here when joining the motorway - as the merge was intended to run into the A6M, then merge with the M60.
Yes it's a bit of a mess, I've got a 1990s A-Z which shows what it should look like.
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Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by KeithW »

2 Sheds wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 22:45 I once asked a senior Highways Agency project manager why the new bridges built when 5 A1 roundabouts were converted to GSJs, were not made large enough to accommodate a future third lane on each carriageway. The answer I was given was that they could not compulsorily purchase land for future schemes which might or might not happen. If this is correct it would explain why there aren’t many more examples to list on this thread.
A lot of that road would I suspect end up being upgraded off line anyway as happened in Yorkshire. From Blyth to the A57 its not too bad but from there to Markham Moor its pretty dire and cuts Elkesley in two. Further there are both flat junctions and narrow accommodation bridges that would also be too narrow.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.22578 ... 8192?hl=en

Replacing the roundabouts reduced congestion considerably at a relatively low cost, trying to piggy back future developments that might prove to be a waste of money made little sense IMHO. The worst part of the A1 south of Blyth is in my opinion Tempsford to Baldock which is overloaded and extremely dangerous with the horrendous section through Sandy and lots of roundabouts. That really will have to de done offline I think. In the meantime any money that is available ought to be used for fixing junctions like this.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.12156 ... 8192?hl=en

I have seen a number near misses along that section when people misjudge the speed of approaching traffic. I know there was a serious RTC there in August. Unusually the diversion involve B and C Class roads.
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