How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Peter350 »

This whole topic reminds me of a similar situation that could potentially happen if Southampton and Portsmouth both get clean air zones - It could become impossible to drive to the Isle of Wight without having to pay some sort of extra charge as two out of the three ferry routes involve passing through these cities. Yes, there is the Lymington route as well but it serves a much smaller market and would be inconvenient for anyone trying to divert from other routes, especially with the A337 often being congested through Lyndhurst.

I can see three ways around this: Either create exemptions for the through routes to the ferry (A33 for Southampton, A3 for Pompey)*, relocate the ferry terminals (Red Funnel to Calshot, Wightlink to Portsmouth international port), or best of all build the damn fixed link!

*if you split the CAZ in two, would you be charged twice to drive between them? Not to mention the fact that allowing heavy traffic would defeat the object of the zone in the first place.
Last edited by Peter350 on Thu Oct 07, 2021 08:27, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Steven »

Skyline wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 07:52
ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
For us in Birmingham the A38 Queensway is the only good route through the City Centre and out to the M6, and it’s included in our CAZ. Just one of them really.
Again though, it's not a Trunk Road, so Highways Agency for National Roads in England (or whatever they're called this week) don't care as it's not on their network.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

ais523
Member
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 19:52
Location: Birmingham

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by ais523 »

Steven wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 08:27
Skyline wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 07:52
ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
For us in Birmingham the A38 Queensway is the only good route through the City Centre and out to the M6, and it’s included in our CAZ. Just one of them really.
Again though, it's not a Trunk Road, so Highways Agency for National Roads in England (or whatever they're called this week) don't care as it's not on their network.
It's also not a through route: if you didn't have business in Birmingham you'd go round it via the M42/M6 or M5/M6, so it's most useful for local journeys where you start on the wrong side of the city centre.

Forcing polluting vehicles to go round rather than through is the whole point, though, because the area it goes through is where the pollution levels are currently too high – in order to bring the air quality down to legal levels they have to be forced to use some other route, even if it's a lot slower. (The east half of the A4540 isn't a horrible alternative off-peak, although it gets rather jammed at peak times and is substantially slower, so that's likely to be the majority choice if you're aiming for Lichfield from south of centre. Or you could just pick a more direct route to your destination if you're aiming for somewhere else, avoiding going near the centre entirely.)
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by jnty »

I think this discussion is an interesting example of two psychological phenomena around motoring - the intellectual amalgamation of vehicles with the people who drive them, meaning that an interruption of 'vehicle rights' is seen as identical to an interruption of personal rights, and the idea that every single journey is entirely necessary and simply must be made.

It may become impossible (or prohibitively expensive) to drive on certain routes using certain vehicles. Individuals who own these vehicles are not personally banned from using those routes, and are hopefully slowly getting the idea that use of these vehicles is becoming more restricted for well-publicised reasons. They are free to choose alternative transport, buy/rent another vehicle or abandon their trip. This is the same situation as for people who don't own a vehicle, or only own an already-restricted vehicle, like a bicycle or moped. The only difference is that the restriction is relatively new and applies to a class of vehicles which has historically seen fewer restrictions applied to it.
User avatar
ajuk
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 23:59
Location: Bristol

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by ajuk »

jnty wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:55 I think this discussion is an interesting example of two psychological phenomena around motoring - the intellectual amalgamation of vehicles with the people who drive them, meaning that an interruption of 'vehicle rights' is seen as identical to an interruption of personal rights, and the idea that every single journey is entirely necessary and simply must be made.

It may become impossible (or prohibitively expensive) to drive on certain routes using certain vehicles. Individuals who own these vehicles are not personally banned from using those routes, and are hopefully slowly getting the idea that use of these vehicles is becoming more restricted for well-publicised reasons. They are free to choose alternative transport, buy/rent another vehicle or abandon their trip. This is the same situation as for people who don't own a vehicle, or only own an already-restricted vehicle, like a bicycle or moped. The only difference is that the restriction is relatively new and applies to a class of vehicles which has historically seen fewer restrictions applied to it.
Some people might want to drive a big polluting Chelsea tractor through Bath because they rich tossers, some people might be driving an old Corsa through it because that's all they can afford and they need to go to a hospital appointment, that's the issue with Poll Taxes.
It wouldn't be so bad if it was only active and rush hour times, at least to begin with.
DB617
Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by DB617 »

100% this. Unfortunately pollution charging is yet another way of intentionally or accidentally beating money out of the lower classes which they certainly don't have. While performing an essential commute through a CAZ to a night shift, a person may be charged an hour's wages, and consequentially be unable to save that money to replace their old polluting banger. Meanwhile the middle class BA1 man has bought themselves a 3L V8 Chelsea Tractor and just pays the CAZ charge to commute through Bath at rush hour driving from home to work along a bus route, and doesn't even notice the small hole in their wallet.
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

DB617 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 14:47 100% this. Unfortunately pollution charging is yet another way of intentionally or accidentally beating money out of the lower classes which they certainly don't have. While performing an essential commute through a CAZ to a night shift, a person may be charged an hour's wages, and consequentially be unable to save that money to replace their old polluting banger. Meanwhile the middle class BA1 man has bought themselves a 3L V8 Chelsea Tractor and just pays the CAZ charge to commute through Bath at rush hour driving from home to work along a bus route, and doesn't even notice the small hole in their wallet.
That is ignoring the fact that the owner of the Chelsea tractor is already paying high VED and more fuel tax (plus VAT) - the later *already* being a "polluter pays" environmental tax
Isleworth1961
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 14:15
Location: South Gloucestershire

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Isleworth1961 »

There is no charge for private cars and motorcycles in the Bath CAZ anyway...
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9706
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by WHBM »

DB617 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 14:47 100% this. Unfortunately pollution charging is yet another way of intentionally or accidentally beating money out of the lower classes which they certainly don't have.
Local authorities don't think about this sort of thing any more, it's just a game now to get the maximum amount in from all sorts of additional charges. Where we are in inner London a residents parking charge of £200 a year (it was previously free for one car) was suddenly imposed, except of course for electric vehicles which nobody in the road has.

Apparently the extended London ULEZ, much of whose proceeds seem to have been spent on an absolute blizzard of signage, was only put up for introduction by TfL because they got wind that various boroughs, Islington being in the lead of course, were getting ready to impose their own schemes. If TfL do it, TfL pocket the money. If the borough does it, the borough pockets the money. Of course, with all the camera installation, once it's up and running it will be all non-electric vehicles next.
User avatar
Dadge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 17:13
Location: Birmingham, England
Contact:

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Dadge »

ais523 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:33
Steven wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 08:27
Skyline wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 07:52
For us in Birmingham the A38 Queensway is the only good route through the City Centre and out to the M6, and it’s included in our CAZ. Just one of them really.
Again though, it's not a Trunk Road, so Highways Agency for National Roads in England (or whatever they're called this week) don't care as it's not on their network.
It's also not a through route: if you didn't have business in Birmingham you'd go round it via the M42/M6 or M5/M6, so it's most useful for local journeys where you start on the wrong side of the city centre.

Forcing polluting vehicles to go round rather than through is the whole point, though, because the area it goes through is where the pollution levels are currently too high – in order to bring the air quality down to legal levels they have to be forced to use some other route, even if it's a lot slower. (The east half of the A4540 isn't a horrible alternative off-peak, although it gets rather jammed at peak times and is substantially slower, so that's likely to be the majority choice if you're aiming for Lichfield from south of centre. Or you could just pick a more direct route to your destination if you're aiming for somewhere else, avoiding going near the centre entirely.)
When you say the A38 through the centre of Birmingham is not a through route, it depends on the scale of the journey. The A38(M) empties onto it, and it was designed to take that traffic through to the south of the city (and vice versa). Now, I take the point that pollution levels in the city centre were too high, and the CAZ will reduce fuel use in the city overall, but including the A38 in the CAZ has forced a great deal of traffic onto the A4540, a route that was already very busy, and is making pollution worse for the communities along the route.
Scratchwood
Member
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 21:44
Location: London

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Scratchwood »

WHBM wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:44
DB617 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 14:47 100% this. Unfortunately pollution charging is yet another way of intentionally or accidentally beating money out of the lower classes which they certainly don't have.
Local authorities don't think about this sort of thing any more, it's just a game now to get the maximum amount in from all sorts of additional charges. Where we are in inner London a residents parking charge of £200 a year (it was previously free for one car) was suddenly imposed, except of course for electric vehicles which nobody in the road has.

Apparently the extended London ULEZ, much of whose proceeds seem to have been spent on an absolute blizzard of signage, was only put up for introduction by TfL because they got wind that various boroughs, Islington being in the lead of course, were getting ready to impose their own schemes. If TfL do it, TfL pocket the money. If the borough does it, the borough pockets the money. Of course, with all the camera installation, once it's up and running it will be all non-electric vehicles next.
The London ULEZ isn't there to collect money, as it's not a congestion charge or road pricing charge that everyone pays. It's there to improve air quality, specifically to removed older diesel engined vehicles, due to the specific pollution issues caused by them (particulates and NOx).

Drive a compliant vehicle - and petrol cars from the early 2000s will be fine - and you don't pay anything.
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by jnty »

Edinburgh council are finding that they've dithered so much in implementing a LEZ that natural fleet replacement has taken care of things and have tweaked their plans as parts of it weren't going to deliver sufficient improvement value anymore.

So LEZs can be viewed as a medium term policy tool to drive faster public health improvements rather than continual revenue-raising, which explains the 'fine-like' structure of many of them. You can imagine that in not too many years, most of them will be obsolete and raise a tiny amount of money.

This is of course in contrast to VED which is intended to be a revenue raising tool but currently designed as a medium term policy tool to drive lower emissions which will in not too many years raise a miniscule amount of money and be obsolete...
DB617
Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by DB617 »

jnty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 15:39 This is of course in contrast to VED which is intended to be a revenue raising tool but currently designed as a medium term policy tool to drive lower emissions which will in not too many years raise a miniscule amount of money and be obsolete...
You may recall that in ~2011-2013, VED income for cheap cars dropped off the face of the country due to the Ford EcoBoost and other STPE engines being designed to hit zero tax... so by about 2014-2015 they slid the emissions bands even further to take in e.g. Fiestas, Focuses, Mazda 3s etc again, and their tax burden went up again. VED will always be there, but charging against tailpipe emissions is going to need to be overhauled for electric vehicles to keep the cash flowing.

That or, we could move to usage charging, but that's probably too complicated for successive governments with an increasingly childlike level of knowledge of how the world works.
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by jnty »

DB617 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 13:01
jnty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 15:39 This is of course in contrast to VED which is intended to be a revenue raising tool but currently designed as a medium term policy tool to drive lower emissions which will in not too many years raise a miniscule amount of money and be obsolete...
You may recall that in ~2011-2013, VED income for cheap cars dropped off the face of the country due to the Ford EcoBoost and other STPE engines being designed to hit zero tax... so by about 2014-2015 they slid the emissions bands even further to take in e.g. Fiestas, Focuses, Mazda 3s etc again, and their tax burden went up again. VED will always be there, but charging against tailpipe emissions is going to need to be overhauled for electric vehicles to keep the cash flowing.

That or, we could move to usage charging, but that's probably too complicated for successive governments with an increasingly childlike level of knowledge of how the world works.
I can't see how we get to a sensible resting state without usage charging of some sort.

So presumably VED will stay and be periodically fiddled with for the next 30 years...
DB617
Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by DB617 »

jnty wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 15:19
DB617 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 13:01
jnty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 15:39 This is of course in contrast to VED which is intended to be a revenue raising tool but currently designed as a medium term policy tool to drive lower emissions which will in not too many years raise a miniscule amount of money and be obsolete...
You may recall that in ~2011-2013, VED income for cheap cars dropped off the face of the country due to the Ford EcoBoost and other STPE engines being designed to hit zero tax... so by about 2014-2015 they slid the emissions bands even further to take in e.g. Fiestas, Focuses, Mazda 3s etc again, and their tax burden went up again. VED will always be there, but charging against tailpipe emissions is going to need to be overhauled for electric vehicles to keep the cash flowing.

That or, we could move to usage charging, but that's probably too complicated for successive governments with an increasingly childlike level of knowledge of how the world works.
I can't see how we get to a sensible resting state without usage charging of some sort.

So presumably VED will stay and be periodically fiddled with for the next 30 years...
It's clear by the fact that various local governments are trying to implement CAZ, CCZ, ULEZ etc that central government action is long overdue, but the fact that local council zones are starting to be implemented is becoming an impediment to a national scheme. Parliament would now have to take powers away from local authorities to implement universal charging, or risk cities being double charged by two different systems, which could end up with the kind of confusing BS that we have currently with 100 different parking apps and 100 different EV charging schemes.
Post Reply