How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

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ajuk
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How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by ajuk »

I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Bryn666 »

ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
There's nothing anywhere that says a trunk road must be free of charge. Get used to more of this.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

The CAZ isn't on the trunk route anyway
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by c2R »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52
ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
There's nothing anywhere that says a trunk road must be free of charge. Get used to more of this.
There is, however, provision in the Scottish legislation that private and special roads are both exempt. I'm not sure whether the English legislation has similar caveats.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:00
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52
ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
There's nothing anywhere that says a trunk road must be free of charge. Get used to more of this.
There is, however, provision in the Scottish legislation that private and special roads are both exempt. I'm not sure whether the English legislation has similar caveats.
Given the presence of the CC on the A282, I'd say that is purely a Scottish legal decision.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Bomag »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52
ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
There's nothing anywhere that says a trunk road must be free of charge. Get used to more of this.
Except in TSM Chapter 8 U2.19.3, which while coving specific circumstances is aligned with the principle that APTR trunk roads are for all lawful vehicles. Many CAZ pricing schedules are punitive and don't reflect actual differentials from a 'free' vehicles - unlike remaining tolls e.g. Dartford, where the charge is roughly in line with impact of different vehicle types.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:03 Given the presence of the CC on the A282, I'd say that is purely a Scottish legal decision.
This was specific legislation on the A282, because the enabling legislation for the Dartford Bridge DBFO provided it would be free once paid for and a maintenance fund built up. When that was rteached, it was either make it free as stipulated, amend the bridge legislation (which was felt would likely get delayed due to legal challenges), or introduce under different legislation, somewhat easier, a continuing toll masquerading as a congestion charge. The latter was chosen.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by ajuk »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:57 The CAZ isn't on the trunk route anyway
I didn't realise the two Trunk roads dead end like this, but as this is still the official through route.
If it effectively cuts that off for many vehicles, I'm still unsure why HE wouldn't try to interject.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Bomag »

The air quality serves the locals right for getting the Bathampton section of the Batheaston scheme canned.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

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ajuk wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 14:29
Nathan_A_RF wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:57The CAZ isn't on the trunk route anyway
I didn't realise the two Trunk roads dead end like this, but as this is still the official through route.
If it effectively cuts that off for many vehicles, I'm still unsure why HE wouldn't try to interject.
Because:
1. It has no effect on a trunk road, so NH have no interest in it
2. If NH did complain anyway, they would be claiming that strategic traffic is transiting between the two trunk roads using local authority roads, so the local authority's response would be "OK then, trunk it and take it off our hands". NH have no interest in adopting urban streets as trunk roads, and the only other course available to them would be to build a bypass linking the two trunk roads, which is a non-starter

...so it's hard to see what the point would be.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by WHBM »

Bath.JPG
Chris5156 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:54 1. It has no effect on a trunk road, so NH have no interest in it
2. If NH did complain anyway, they would be claiming that strategic traffic is transiting between the two trunk roads using local authority roads, so the local authority's response would be "OK then, trunk it and take it off our hands". NH have no interest in adopting urban streets as trunk roads, and the only other course available to them would be to build a bypass linking the two trunk roads, which is a non-starter
I actually had no idea that the two NH trunk roads at Bath do not touch (although the connecting route is all signed primary through the city), and the through route of A36-A46 from Wiltshire up to the M4 has this break of responsibility. You have to look at the HE Areas map extremely closely on maximum zoom to see this.

So is the whole Bath CAZ concept a Turf War between the local highway authority and National Highways over who is going to maintain it, conducted by sticking fines etc on passing through route vehicles ? NH have plenty of urban stretches elsewhere in the country, and I'm surprised Bath MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has not told Grant Shapps to tell HE not to be so silly.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 Bath.JPG
Chris5156 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:54 1. It has no effect on a trunk road, so NH have no interest in it
2. If NH did complain anyway, they would be claiming that strategic traffic is transiting between the two trunk roads using local authority roads, so the local authority's response would be "OK then, trunk it and take it off our hands". NH have no interest in adopting urban streets as trunk roads, and the only other course available to them would be to build a bypass linking the two trunk roads, which is a non-starter
I actually had no idea that the two NH trunk roads at Bath do not touch (although the connecting route is all signed primary through the city), and the through route of A36-A46 from Wiltshire up to the M4 has this break of responsibility. You have to look at the HE Areas map extremely closely on maximum zoom to see this.

So is the whole Bath CAZ concept a Turf War between the local highway authority and National Highways over who is going to maintain it, conducted by sticking fines etc on passing through route vehicles ? NH have plenty of urban stretches elsewhere in the country, and I'm surprised Bath MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has not told Grant Shapps to tell HE not to be so silly.
Why would the government which granted these powers object to them being used in the intended way?
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

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WHBM wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35So is the whole Bath CAZ concept a Turf War between the local highway authority and National Highways over who is going to maintain it, conducted by sticking fines etc on passing through route vehicles ? NH have plenty of urban stretches elsewhere in the country, and I'm surprised Bath MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has not told Grant Shapps to tell HE not to be so silly.
I doubt it. The trunk road situation around Bath is nothing new, and when DTp/HA/whoever in decades gone by attempted to build a short section of trunk road linking the A36 to the A4 Batheaston Bypass, it was halted by the strength of feeling of the locals. Without it the Batheaston Bypass doesn't really make a lot of sense and the balance of traffic is all wrong for the junctions as built. But the status quo evidently suits the local authority and the people who elect them. In any case, trunking the urban route wouldn't do anything to reduce vehicle emissions.

The odd trunk road situation is a legacy of the days when Bath was a County Borough and trunk roads never entered those.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by wrinkly »

Chris5156 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 15:37 The odd trunk road situation is a legacy of the days when Bath was a County Borough and trunk roads never entered those.
As the Wiki page on trunk roads points out, some trunk roads entered county boroughs from the 1946 Act, but I don't think Bath was affected.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

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Chris5156 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:54
ajuk wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 14:29
Nathan_A_RF wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:57The CAZ isn't on the trunk route anyway
I didn't realise the two Trunk roads dead end like this, but as this is still the official through route.
If it effectively cuts that off for many vehicles, I'm still unsure why HE wouldn't try to interject.
Because:
1. It has no effect on a trunk road, so NH have no interest in it
I think it does, I explained that in my original post.
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52
ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
There's nothing anywhere that says a trunk road must be free of charge. Get used to more of this.
1, saying "get used to it" is not an argument for doing something and 2, my car is exempt from the charge anyway, I genuinely asked because I was confused about how it would work.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by jnty »

ajuk wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 00:00
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52 There's nothing anywhere that says a trunk road must be free of charge. Get used to more of this.
1, saying "get used to it" is not an argument for doing something and 2, my car is exempt from the charge anyway, I genuinely asked because I was confused about how it would work.
I think the arguments for CAZ/LEZ are well summarised elsewhere - the "get used to it" side of things is simply that there is likely going to be a general trend toward direct charging to reflect the externalities of vehicle use. "How it will work" is sometimes going to involve "easy" bypass routes like in London, but will increasingly involve certain vehicles simply not driving certain routes, driving less, or choosing a different vehicle or transport mode - which of course is the precise aim of these policies.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by DB617 »

Looking at this thread, the issue I have with Bath is not the fact that they decided to implement a CAZ, but that over the years the level of transport NIMBYism has resulted in an actual disruption to the cost free flow of the trunk network, and NH seems to take absolutely no interest. The Bathampton Bypass was scrapped due to NIMBYs, now the same town's NIMBY culture has resulted in their local authority deeming it appropriate to collect extra tolls from people who would never have passed through their CAZ if it wasn't for the incomplete trunk road network. They have, I'm sure by accident, seized and now exercised control of a 'missing link' in the trunk network. I'm confident that in Wales or Scotland the government would have rectified this, indeed as far as I know some of the Welsh trunk roads pass right through a town (e.g. until recently Newtown, Powys - which was bypassed at significant Government cost) but remain in control of Traffic Wales/NWTRA. There is just no pride in the non-blue line trunk network that remains in this country; it seems to be viewed by many officials as nothing more than inconvenient leftovers.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by A303Chris »

However Bath is not the only toen with a gap in the trunk road network as a result of the former County Boroughs which Trunk Roads never went through. Before the M4 and de trunking of the A4, the A4 stopped being trunked at the London Road railway bridge entering Reading from the east and became trunk again at Calcot golf club in the west.

The same happens at Hastings which is clear on the HE network map . The A259 stops being trunk at Glyne Gap on the Hasting boundary to the west and commences again at Bachelors Bump in the east. The A21 also ceases at Bladslow. The ironic thing here is the county borough was abolished and East Sussex became Highway authority. They tried to give it to the DfT in 1974 but they did not want it. So East Sussex could bring in a CAZ and the same would apply.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Chris5156 »

ajuk wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 00:00
Chris5156 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:54
ajuk wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 14:29
I didn't realise the two Trunk roads dead end like this, but as this is still the official through route.
If it effectively cuts that off for many vehicles, I'm still unsure why HE wouldn't try to interject.
Because:
1. It has no effect on a trunk road, so NH have no interest in it
I think it does, I explained that in my original post.
I don’t mean this to be rude, but it’s not a matter of opinion. The CAZ doesn’t cover any trunk roads, and therefore NH have no interest in it. The fact that you would pass through the CZ to transit between two trunk roads is neither here nor there. There is, categorically, no impact on any trunk road.

I understand the desire for NH to take a stand on this, but they are not a campaigning organisation. They will act to protect their own assets, but their own assets are not in any way affected. Their interest is strictly and narrowly defined to cover the trunk road network. The fact that you might pass through the CAZ to get between the A36 and A46 is, as a result, irrelevant.

You also have to consider that NH exists only to carry out the instructions of the DfT, and since the creation of Clean Air Zones in cities is DfT policy, NH are unlikely to place an objection to one.
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Re: How do CAZ operate with trunk roads?

Post by Skyline »

ajuk wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 01:32 I'm a bit confused as to how the clean air zone in Bath operates with the A46-A36 Trunk road running through it. I would have though the CAZ would have to operate so that traffic passing through that route but not veering from it would be exempt from the charge unless Highways England say otherwise.
I'm not sure how the Trunk road through route is meant to continue to operate with the CAZ, I would have thought most HGVs would divert to the A350.
For us in Birmingham the A38 Queensway is the only good route through the City Centre and out to the M6, and it’s included in our CAZ. Just one of them really.
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