What Dictates Rumble Strips?
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What Dictates Rumble Strips?
I am specifically asking about the Approaches to Roundabouts. Generally speaking when Dual carriageways hit a Roundabout, there’s usually a good distance of horizontal Yellow lines across the road to slow drivers.
However some roundabouts, with similar characteristics don’t seem to have them.
Why is this and is it a Mandatory road design to have?
For some Case studies!
The A9 & M90 approaches to Broxden Roundabout All have the usual yellow lines on approach but Inveralmond roundabout further round on the Bypass, doesn’t seem to have them. Any Reasons?
However some roundabouts, with similar characteristics don’t seem to have them.
Why is this and is it a Mandatory road design to have?
For some Case studies!
The A9 & M90 approaches to Broxden Roundabout All have the usual yellow lines on approach but Inveralmond roundabout further round on the Bypass, doesn’t seem to have them. Any Reasons?
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
I have never seen the purpose of these dreadful additions to our road surfaces. They were installed on the A500 West after the council took the road over from the Highways Agency. There surely has to come a point when you can't save people from their own folly any more. Things like this are way over the top. Interestingly, the strips were never replaced when the approach to the last roundabout near Nantwich was resurfaced. An outbreak of commonsense maybe ?
Just look at how ridiculous they are: -
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.07246 ... !1e3?hl=en
and
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.07045 ... !1e3?hl=en
It's the same in the other direction too.
Just look at how ridiculous they are: -
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.07246 ... !1e3?hl=en
and
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.07045 ... !1e3?hl=en
It's the same in the other direction too.
- RichardA35
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
First thing would be to check if they are applied in accordance with the guidance (especially the 3km of dual c/way in advance):
TSM Chapter 5 wrote: 6.10 Transverse yellow bar markings
6.10.1. Transverse yellow bar markings are used in certain conditions on high speed approaches to roundabouts, either on the main carriageway or on an exit slip road. They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods. There is little evidence that they reduce collisions in other circumstances. The types of accidents most likely to be influenced are single vehicle and overrun accidents. The markings should not be used in an attempt to reduce speeds at sharp bends or other hazards. Unless there is a very strong case due to the accident record, the markings are not appropriate on slip roads, or if there is a segregated left‑turn lane for the roundabout, or at roundabouts controlled by traffic signals. On approaching a green signal, some drivers will slow down in response to the markings, whilst others will maintain speed in an attempt to beat a change to red.
6.10.2. Before use of the markings is contemplated, it is essential to ensure that all standard signing has been correctly installed and is of the appropriate size (see Chapter 4). All signs should be checked to ensure they are in good condition and not obscured e.g. by vegetation, and sited at the correct distances from the junction. Only then should treatment with yellow bar markings be considered.
6.10.3. The markings are prescribed as diagram 1067 (S11‑4‑35) and should normally be considered only where the following criteria are met: a) the carriageway on which they are to be laid is on the approach to a roundabout on a motorway or dual carriageway road subject to the national speed limit, either on the main carriageway or on an exit slip road), b) there is at least 3 km of dual carriageway in advance of the site, with no major intersections or bends with a horizontal radius less than the desirable minimum for a 120 kph design speed shown in table 3 of TD 9 ‘Highway Link Design’, c) the road is subject to the national speed limit, and d) the accident record for the roundabout includes at least three accidents involving personal injury during the preceding three years, in which speed on the relevant approach was a contributory factor.
6.10.4. Each approach to a given roundabout is treated as a separate site and the use of the markings on each approach must be justified independently. The application of the criteria in 6.10.3 will ensure that the markings are used only at sites where they are likely to make a positive contribution to safety.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
By coincidence, the Road Research Laboratory installed the first trial ones just along from where you write about, at the Newbridge Roundabout outside Edinburgh, which was then the terminating roundabout for both M8 and M9 from opposite directions. Probably 1975. There was no overpass then, just a flat roundabout approached by two motorways. The staff stayed in a hotel in Edinburgh, someone when I was at university had a contact, and so there was an evening when they came to describe it to us.Duncan macknight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 13:23 The A9 & M90 approaches to Broxden Roundabout All have the usual yellow lines on approach but Inveralmond roundabout further round on the Bypass, doesn’t seem to have them. Any Reasons?
They had worked it out on their test track at the old RRL premises at Bracknell. They chose Newbridge because they could apply two slightly different tests at the same place for the two motorway approaches (I don't think there was another equivalent site in the country), plus it was close to the airport to make day trips from Bracknell practical. It seemed a bit different and more sophisticated to what is installed nowadays, in that the distance between each strip gradually reduced to a logarithmic scale, chosen to give a slightly greater impression that you were going too fast. The strips were also very slightly, and progressively, higher above the surface, so there was a gradually increasing bumping effect. This doesn't seem to be done on current installations (which I, of course, take particular note of). Their tests had paid particular attention to the anti-skid qualities of the material.
Team said that you could erect as many signs as you like, but some just don't absorb them, so this was designed to use other senses, both hearing and feel. Radar speeds before and after were of course measured, and it was felt to have been a success. The roundabout did previously have a record of overspeed accidents, another reason for selection.
Amusing point was they prepared a very professionally written, of course, press release about it, which included in its recipients the Sunday Post newspaper. If you have never encountered it, the Sunday Post is a Scottish institution, written in an extraordinarily folksy style (it has the same publisher as The Beano, and is based in Dundee). I believe in Scotland it used to have the highest percentage circulation of any newspaper - everyone used to buy it. The sub-editor completely mashed up the careful and practical description of the trial, and it appeared as a couple of short paragraphs (and the supplied photograph) under the heading "This'll cure those speeding drivers !!".
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
I thought the first trials were late 60s or earlier 70s at locations including the then southern end of the A1(M) at Welwyn.
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
I know they used to have them on a very long eastbound approach to the A64 Hopgrove Roundabout at York, they seemed to last forever and were very bumpy, yet westbound never had them I assume as it was a lower speed approach….. obviously once traffic signals were added I assume you cannot have the rumble strips anymore so were removed.
A64 Bramham Roundabout still has from both directions.
A64 Bramham Roundabout still has from both directions.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
There were certainly rumble strips in the 1970's on the A1 not just on the edges and centre line but laterally at the approaches to roundabouts as vehicles ending up crashing as they hit it at much too high a speed was not unknown. They seemed to fall out of use, at least in part as the result of lighting improvements.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
I think longitudinal rumblestrips along edge lines were first trialled in the 1980s at the M6/M56/A50 interchange (some years after its original construction).
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
This is the key sentence: -RichardA35 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 14:00First thing would be to check if they are applied in accordance with the guidance (especially the 3km of dual c/way in advance):TSM Chapter 5 wrote: 6.10 Transverse yellow bar markings
6.10.1. Transverse yellow bar markings are used in certain conditions on high speed approaches to roundabouts, either on the main carriageway or on an exit slip road. They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods. There is little evidence that they reduce collisions in other circumstances. The types of accidents most likely to be influenced are single vehicle and overrun accidents. The markings should not be used in an attempt to reduce speeds at sharp bends or other hazards. Unless there is a very strong case due to the accident record, the markings are not appropriate on slip roads, or if there is a segregated left‑turn lane for the roundabout, or at roundabouts controlled by traffic signals. On approaching a green signal, some drivers will slow down in response to the markings, whilst others will maintain speed in an attempt to beat a change to red.
6.10.2. Before use of the markings is contemplated, it is essential to ensure that all standard signing has been correctly installed and is of the appropriate size (see Chapter 4). All signs should be checked to ensure they are in good condition and not obscured e.g. by vegetation, and sited at the correct distances from the junction. Only then should treatment with yellow bar markings be considered.
6.10.3. The markings are prescribed as diagram 1067 (S11‑4‑35) and should normally be considered only where the following criteria are met: a) the carriageway on which they are to be laid is on the approach to a roundabout on a motorway or dual carriageway road subject to the national speed limit, either on the main carriageway or on an exit slip road), b) there is at least 3 km of dual carriageway in advance of the site, with no major intersections or bends with a horizontal radius less than the desirable minimum for a 120 kph design speed shown in table 3 of TD 9 ‘Highway Link Design’, c) the road is subject to the national speed limit, and d) the accident record for the roundabout includes at least three accidents involving personal injury during the preceding three years, in which speed on the relevant approach was a contributory factor.
6.10.4. Each approach to a given roundabout is treated as a separate site and the use of the markings on each approach must be justified independently. The application of the criteria in 6.10.3 will ensure that the markings are used only at sites where they are likely to make a positive contribution to safety.
"They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods."
This does not apply on the A500 West where the longest stretch is little more than a mile. In its early days there were one or two crashes due to motorists crashing into the roundabout, but none in recent memory (I've lived here for 26 years). I very much doubt this has anything to do with the presence of the rumble strips because once they are painted literally everywhere, they are no longer of any value as they just don't get noticed any more.
The problem is this Nanny State we have created where officials seem to think it is their duty to prevent every conceivable accident using the billion to one in 500 years occurence test.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
The point about the rumble strips at A1 Roundabouts was that they gave audible and tactile feedback where there was no lighting. Remember this was before halogen headlamps became widely available so car headlights were not that great either. This is why my cars at the time got fitted with aftermarket spot lamps. The centreline and edge rumble strips give a similar warning if you start to drift out of lane which is easy to do at night after a long drive back from Scotland for example.fras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 21:02
This is the key sentence: -
"They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods."
This does not apply on the A500 West where the longest stretch is little more than a mile. In its early days there were one or two crashes due to motorists crashing into the roundabout, but none in recent memory (I've lived here for 26 years). I very much doubt this has anything to do with the presence of the rumble strips because once they are painted literally everywhere, they are no longer of any value as they just don't get noticed any more.
The problem is this Nanny State we have created where officials seem to think it is their duty to prevent every conceivable accident using the billion to one in 500 years occurence test.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
Never assume there is a strict system where the road network is concerned.Duncan macknight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 13:23Why is this and is it a Mandatory road design to have?
For some Case studies!
The A9 & M90 approaches to Broxden Roundabout All have the usual yellow lines on approach but Inveralmond roundabout further round on the Bypass, doesn’t seem to have them. Any Reasons?
Things like this almost always come down to a combination of the accident record at the site and the preferences of the engineer who is given the job of improving it. A roundabout where people keep approaching at high speed and causing accidents might get rumble strips if the engineer dealing with it decides they're the thing to use and if the budget won't allow a more costly intervention.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
I concur, the A500 ones are way over the top. I understand if you've been driving for potentially 100 miles on the A30 and its the first roundabout but not after a mile. I know some vehicles can get up to a hefty speed on the A500 as its quiet most of the time but there is still plenty of warning. That roundabout is quite sharp in its bends but thats the only reason I can think of.KeithW wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 21:09The point about the rumble strips at A1 Roundabouts was that they gave audible and tactile feedback where there was no lighting. Remember this was before halogen headlamps became widely available so car headlights were not that great either. This is why my cars at the time got fitted with aftermarket spot lamps. The centreline and edge rumble strips give a similar warning if you start to drift out of lane which is easy to do at night after a long drive back from Scotland for example.fras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 21:02
This is the key sentence: -
"They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods."
This does not apply on the A500 West where the longest stretch is little more than a mile. In its early days there were one or two crashes due to motorists crashing into the roundabout, but none in recent memory (I've lived here for 26 years). I very much doubt this has anything to do with the presence of the rumble strips because once they are painted literally everywhere, they are no longer of any value as they just don't get noticed any more.
The problem is this Nanny State we have created where officials seem to think it is their duty to prevent every conceivable accident using the billion to one in 500 years occurence test.
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
Car accidents cost all of us ~£16 billion in 2019. If a few rumblestrips wake up someone to save some of that cost, that's a good thing. So yeah, you're against nanny state saving us money, but for nanny state shouldering the costs of car accidents. Something wrong with your priorities here.fras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 21:02This is the key sentence: -RichardA35 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 14:00First thing would be to check if they are applied in accordance with the guidance (especially the 3km of dual c/way in advance):TSM Chapter 5 wrote: 6.10 Transverse yellow bar markings
6.10.1. Transverse yellow bar markings are used in certain conditions on high speed approaches to roundabouts, either on the main carriageway or on an exit slip road. They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods. There is little evidence that they reduce collisions in other circumstances. The types of accidents most likely to be influenced are single vehicle and overrun accidents. The markings should not be used in an attempt to reduce speeds at sharp bends or other hazards. Unless there is a very strong case due to the accident record, the markings are not appropriate on slip roads, or if there is a segregated left‑turn lane for the roundabout, or at roundabouts controlled by traffic signals. On approaching a green signal, some drivers will slow down in response to the markings, whilst others will maintain speed in an attempt to beat a change to red.
6.10.2. Before use of the markings is contemplated, it is essential to ensure that all standard signing has been correctly installed and is of the appropriate size (see Chapter 4). All signs should be checked to ensure they are in good condition and not obscured e.g. by vegetation, and sited at the correct distances from the junction. Only then should treatment with yellow bar markings be considered.
6.10.3. The markings are prescribed as diagram 1067 (S11‑4‑35) and should normally be considered only where the following criteria are met: a) the carriageway on which they are to be laid is on the approach to a roundabout on a motorway or dual carriageway road subject to the national speed limit, either on the main carriageway or on an exit slip road), b) there is at least 3 km of dual carriageway in advance of the site, with no major intersections or bends with a horizontal radius less than the desirable minimum for a 120 kph design speed shown in table 3 of TD 9 ‘Highway Link Design’, c) the road is subject to the national speed limit, and d) the accident record for the roundabout includes at least three accidents involving personal injury during the preceding three years, in which speed on the relevant approach was a contributory factor.
6.10.4. Each approach to a given roundabout is treated as a separate site and the use of the markings on each approach must be justified independently. The application of the criteria in 6.10.3 will ensure that the markings are used only at sites where they are likely to make a positive contribution to safety.
"They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods."
This does not apply on the A500 West where the longest stretch is little more than a mile. In its early days there were one or two crashes due to motorists crashing into the roundabout, but none in recent memory (I've lived here for 26 years). I very much doubt this has anything to do with the presence of the rumble strips because once they are painted literally everywhere, they are no longer of any value as they just don't get noticed any more.
The problem is this Nanny State we have created where officials seem to think it is their duty to prevent every conceivable accident using the billion to one in 500 years occurence test.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
A different rumble-strip question : why do rumble strips in advance of, say a 30mph village speed limit or a sharp ben, extend across both sides of the road?
I've driven at the speed limit through a village, pass the NSL sign, start accelerating, then berdum berdum berdum berdum.
I've driven at the speed limit through a village, pass the NSL sign, start accelerating, then berdum berdum berdum berdum.
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
It could have been worse, The Sunday Post could have used the exercise for one of those weird weekly ‘The Hon Man’ articles, where a photograph of all involved would have a cartoon superimposed over the reporter himself. I can just imagine the caption ‘Our man Hon gets to grip with road-rumble strip boffins’.WHBM wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 14:34By coincidence, the Road Research Laboratory installed the first trial ones just along from where you write about, at the Newbridge Roundabout outside Edinburgh, which was then the terminating roundabout for both M8 and M9 from opposite directions. Probably 1975. There was no overpass then, just a flat roundabout approached by two motorways. The staff stayed in a hotel in Edinburgh, someone when I was at university had a contact, and so there was an evening when they came to describe it to us.Duncan macknight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 13:23 The A9 & M90 approaches to Broxden Roundabout All have the usual yellow lines on approach but Inveralmond roundabout further round on the Bypass, doesn’t seem to have them. Any Reasons?
They had worked it out on their test track at the old RRL premises at Bracknell. They chose Newbridge because they could apply two slightly different tests at the same place for the two motorway approaches (I don't think there was another equivalent site in the country), plus it was close to the airport to make day trips from Bracknell practical. It seemed a bit different and more sophisticated to what is installed nowadays, in that the distance between each strip gradually reduced to a logarithmic scale, chosen to give a slightly greater impression that you were going too fast. The strips were also very slightly, and progressively, higher above the surface, so there was a gradually increasing bumping effect. This doesn't seem to be done on current installations (which I, of course, take particular note of). Their tests had paid particular attention to the anti-skid qualities of the material.
Team said that you could erect as many signs as you like, but some just don't absorb them, so this was designed to use other senses, both hearing and feel. Radar speeds before and after were of course measured, and it was felt to have been a success. The roundabout did previously have a record of overspeed accidents, another reason for selection.
Amusing point was they prepared a very professionally written, of course, press release about it, which included in its recipients the Sunday Post newspaper. If you have never encountered it, the Sunday Post is a Scottish institution, written in an extraordinarily folksy style (it has the same publisher as The Beano, and is based in Dundee). I believe in Scotland it used to have the highest percentage circulation of any newspaper - everyone used to buy it. The sub-editor completely mashed up the careful and practical description of the trial, and it appeared as a couple of short paragraphs (and the supplied photograph) under the heading "This'll cure those speeding drivers !!".
Murray Duncan
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
No, that's not quite it... While I agree with what you're saying, there is also the fact that inappropriate use contributes to warning fatigue and makes the use where ut is needed ineffectual. The same applies to yellow backed signs... It simply isn't necessary to yellow back a flag sign at a minor rural side road on flat countryside with no visibility issues (yes, east Yorkshire, I'm talking to you!), or a 30 mph repeater on a rural b road in a village (Herts)matt-thepie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 17:13 Car accidents cost all of us ~£16 billion in 2019. If a few rumblestrips wake up someone to save some of that cost, that's a good thing. So yeah, you're against nanny state saving us money, but for nanny state shouldering the costs of car accidents. Something wrong with your priorities here.
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
So where does the limit of official intervention end then ? Would an overall 15mph limit on ALL roads be OTT or not, to take an extreme example ?matt-thepie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 17:13Car accidents cost all of us ~£16 billion in 2019. If a few rumblestrips wake up someone to save some of that cost, that's a good thing. So yeah, you're against nanny state saving us money, but for nanny state shouldering the costs of car accidents. Something wrong with your priorities here.fras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 21:02This is the key sentence: -RichardA35 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 14:00
First thing would be to check if they are applied in accordance with the guidance (especially the 3km of dual c/way in advance):
"They have been shown to be effective in reducing accidents associated with speed adaptation, i.e. where drivers have been travelling at sustained high speed for long periods."
This does not apply on the A500 West where the longest stretch is little more than a mile. In its early days there were one or two crashes due to motorists crashing into the roundabout, but none in recent memory (I've lived here for 26 years). I very much doubt this has anything to do with the presence of the rumble strips because once they are painted literally everywhere, they are no longer of any value as they just don't get noticed any more.
The problem is this Nanny State we have created where officials seem to think it is their duty to prevent every conceivable accident using the billion to one in 500 years occurence test.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
[quote=c2R post_id=1208611 time=1633466555 user_id=60
No, that's not quite it... While I agree with what you're saying, there is also the fact that inappropriate use contributes to warning fatigue and makes the use where ut is needed ineffectual. The same applies to yellow backed signs... It simply isn't necessary to yellow back a flag sign at a minor rural side road on flat countryside with no visibility issues (yes, east Yorkshire, I'm talking to you!), or a 30 mph repeater on a rural b road in a village (Herts)
[/quote]
I really dont agree with this, these are proportionate warnings that any responsible driver will register. Any person who disregards them does so at their own and other road users peril.
No, that's not quite it... While I agree with what you're saying, there is also the fact that inappropriate use contributes to warning fatigue and makes the use where ut is needed ineffectual. The same applies to yellow backed signs... It simply isn't necessary to yellow back a flag sign at a minor rural side road on flat countryside with no visibility issues (yes, east Yorkshire, I'm talking to you!), or a 30 mph repeater on a rural b road in a village (Herts)
[/quote]
I really dont agree with this, these are proportionate warnings that any responsible driver will register. Any person who disregards them does so at their own and other road users peril.
Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
Such fatigue is well observed - if you've got yellow rumble strips on the approach to every roundabout, and yellow backed warnings on the approach to every junction, dangerous or not, then people will get used to them and they will be less effective where they're actually needed.KeithW wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 23:25I really dont agree with this, these are proportionate warnings that any responsible driver will register. Any person who disregards them does so at their own and other road users peril.c2R wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 21:42
No, that's not quite it... While I agree with what you're saying, there is also the fact that inappropriate use contributes to warning fatigue and makes the use where ut is needed ineffectual. The same applies to yellow backed signs... It simply isn't necessary to yellow back a flag sign at a minor rural side road on flat countryside with no visibility issues (yes, east Yorkshire, I'm talking to you!), or a 30 mph repeater on a rural b road in a village (Herts)
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Re: What Dictates Rumble Strips?
Overuse of things is why we have such crap roads nowadays as it's become an arms race to "fix" bad driving through signs and lines hence why we have miles of wobbly hatching and multi coloured rumble strips everywhere with no one doing any research into how effective they really are. Citing experiments from 1986 no longer cuts the mustard.
The answer is simple, move to sustainable safety in highway design and move towards mandatory retesting of all drivers every 5 years which would in turn get the bad drivers off the roads entirely. We should not be tolerating sub-par use of a motor vehicle, it's not a right to own one and if people can't be responsible then they don't get one.
This won't happen though because cars are this country's equivalent of America's guns. People will fight tooth and nail for the "right" to behave like a prat with a lethal piece of machinery and get the hump when their behaviour is called out.
The answer is simple, move to sustainable safety in highway design and move towards mandatory retesting of all drivers every 5 years which would in turn get the bad drivers off the roads entirely. We should not be tolerating sub-par use of a motor vehicle, it's not a right to own one and if people can't be responsible then they don't get one.
This won't happen though because cars are this country's equivalent of America's guns. People will fight tooth and nail for the "right" to behave like a prat with a lethal piece of machinery and get the hump when their behaviour is called out.
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck