Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Herned
Member
Posts: 1363
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 09:15

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Herned »

Vierwielen wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 22:47 Possibly the M25 could have been named the M0. :D
Of course three of Europe's capital cities did exactly that so it's not without precedent
User avatar
SBRoxMan
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 15:20

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by SBRoxMan »

Herned wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:04
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 22:47 Possibly the M25 could have been named the M0. :D
Of course three of Europe's capital cities did exactly that so it's not without precedent
Which capital cities are those?
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by c2R »

Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by wrinkly »

Steven wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:53 The original M602 of course only got as far as Eccles anyway, the eastwards connection to Regent Road was much later.
Though for clarity, the M52 South Lancashire Motorway was planned to have its eastern terminus on the A56 at a flat roundabout junction; the present A57(M) underpass was a later addition and not part of the original plans.

The M602 to Eccles was just Stage I.
The original end of the M602 at J2 is close to what was the boundary between Eccles MB (which came under Lancashire CC) and Salford CB. That may have been a factor in ending it there for the time being. Other relevant factors may have been the tolerable quality of the A57 east of Eccles, and the fact that building the Eccles bypass first enabled the key interchanges in the motorway network to be completed.

The eastward extension came at a time when there was a government push to improve roads to ports - but also at a time when the Salford/Manchester docks were declining in importance, soon to be turned into Salford Quays.
Herned
Member
Posts: 1363
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 09:15

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Herned »

c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21 Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Bucharest. Disappointingly Belgrade, Berne and Berlin didn't follow the others' lead
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Chris Bertram »

c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21 Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Belgium gives ring roads "R" numbers regardless of standard, so some are full motorway and some are single-carriageway all-purpose affairs. Brussels' ring road is R0, most of it is motorway, however one part on the eastern side of the city appears to br AP DC according to my Michelin road atlas of Benelux.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Euan »

The Czech Republic has a D0 motorway forming a partial ring road around Prague, similar to the M0 around Budapest in Hungary. So yes, it certainly wouldn’t be completely unprecedented to have an M0 around London. There are of course other examples throughout Europe of this sort of idea mentioned upthread. It seems to have more appeal in countries with a road system centralised around a capital which sits somewhere that is geographically convenient for the country as a whole.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24639
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by exiled »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:51
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21 Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Belgium gives ring roads "R" numbers regardless of standard, so some are full motorway and some are single-carriageway all-purpose affairs. Brussels' ring road is R0, most of it is motorway, however one part on the eastern side of the city appears to br AP DC according to my Michelin road atlas of Benelux.
The SE section of the R0 both in Flanders and Wallonia is not motorway.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Owain »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35 Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Chris5156 »

Owain wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35 Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
That might qualify it for a number in the GR series?
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Owain »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:43
Owain wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35 Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
That might qualify it for a number in the GR series?
I should've known that on SABRE you'll always get an answer for everything, even before breakfast! :D
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5674
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Vierwielen »

Owain wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35 Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
IMHO, the Péripherique has more in common with the North Circular (aka A405)/South Circular (aka A205) than with the M25.
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5674
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Vierwielen »

exiled wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 20:07
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:51
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21 Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Belgium gives ring roads "R" numbers regardless of standard, so some are full motorway and some are single-carriageway all-purpose affairs. Brussels' ring road is R0, most of it is motorway, however one part on the eastern side of the city appears to br AP DC according to my Michelin road atlas of Benelux.
The SE section of the R0 both in Flanders and Wallonia is not motorway.
So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Steven »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47 the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
Err, no. The M6/M5/M42 would be the route numbered around Birmingham because that's the box around the city.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5674
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Vierwielen »

Steven wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:07
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47 the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
Err, no. The M6/M5/M42 would be the route numbered around Birmingham because that's the box around the city.
That depends whether we are talking about a route with the North/South Circular functionality of a route with the M25 functionality.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Steven »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:17
Steven wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:07
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47 the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
Err, no. The M6/M5/M42 would be the route numbered around Birmingham because that's the box around the city.
That depends whether we are talking about a route with the North/South Circular functionality of a route with the M25 functionality.
Not really. It's making the classic error of including huge areas that are functionally separate - for example, you're choosing to go right through an important city centre!

The M42/M5/M6 box is the M25 equivalent, with the Circular equivalent being the A4540. The M5 is basically the western edge of where the influence of Birmingham fades out - only a tiny bit is even in the Birmingham Travel to Work Area; whilst the eastern side of the M42 is only just inside the TTWA. It's similar to how the majority of the M25 is within the London TTWA, and not miles outside.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24639
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by exiled »

Owain wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35 Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
The BP seems not to have a number because it appears to be sui generis, under its own rules, in the French Code de la Route, a Parisian boulevard with some motorway characteristics. The other Pérépheriques have mostly RN numbers with a few RD or A classifications.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Chris5156 »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47 So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
In what world is that collection of roads considered to function as a single ring road? :shock:
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 16:38
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47 So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
In what world is that collection of roads considered to function as a single ring road? :shock:
It wouldn't. In Belgium R routes are often not full rings. Antwerp is a good example where R2 is a corner cut and nothing else.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24639
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by exiled »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 17:09
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 16:38
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47 So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
In what world is that collection of roads considered to function as a single ring road? :shock:
It wouldn't. In Belgium R routes are often not full rings. Antwerp is a good example where R2 is a corner cut and nothing else.
And of course you also get the R9 in Charleroi that although a complete ring, is one way. The R roads of Belgium are basically what the old unitary state and now the three regions need them to be at any particular point on the space time continuum.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Post Reply