The Pennine Tower

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DanT97
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The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking over the last few years and I have realised that the best possible use for the Pennine Tower is as an observation deck/photo gallery. I feel that the tower can be renovated and open to the public so that we can admire the view and relax after a long drive. It is, after all, recommended that you take a lengthy break if you intend to drive for more than three hours. Marketing can encourage this on the grounds of driver safety.

What I would like to see in the tower is:
*Good lighting
*Some telescopes and/or binoculars for gazing at the view
*A display showing all the things that are visible from said view and where to find them
*A menagerie of old motorway photos, showing the early Preston Bypass and the old Forton services amongst other things
*Possibly mounting on top of the tower, a live webcam for some purpose, gazing at the motorway and other things

I am not one for giving up in the face of adversity and I do feel that the following improvements should be made in order to get us going:
1. Back roads will grant access to the services from the nearest A Road, wherever that may be. Non-motorway traffic is important, you know. The A6 should be connected probably.
2. Possible Goverment/Local Authority lobbying to repeal or change MSA regulations to reduce requirements for MSAs to not attract too many people. We want to maximise business, so limits must be removed.
3. Merchandising/Souvenirs with Tower/Old Motorways theme. T-shirts & mugs with tower image, perhaps. Bringing in extra money will help us grow.
4. Walls and ceilings to be sealed to prevent asbestos-related incidents occurring.
5. Construction of fire escape on Western (Non-motorway) side. This should take the form of a spiral staircase linked via a short walkway to the side of the tower. We may have to modify a window to put this in place.

I like the idea of a heritage centre here. Perhaps make this a HQ office for SABRE themselves for meetings and stuff, this will help to expand the society. Monies for this project should be raised through grants or charitable appeal. Maybe make more money by adding to Sabre a premium paid service with exclusive perks. Maybe also charge for away days. Definitely improve public transport connections, more coach parties too.

And finally, consider making this some kind of Mecca for nature-types. You’d be able to see a lot of wildlife from here with the right binoculars. I also like the idea of a Sabre-branded Ham Radio type service, broadcast traffic bulletins and weather reports, maybe also deliver live sports results if there is enough time.

If you can make it happen, make it happen. You never know, if enough investors can be attracted, you can do well. I advise us to observe a first step of developing a good PR/marketing strategy.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by c2R »

I don't think anything has materially changed since you last raised the subject... I'd suggest that you revist the original thread, particularly the posts from Chris5156 and KeithW.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by rhyds »

For those unaware of the previous discussion on this topic, here's the original thread. I'd suggest getting a warm drink before starting...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35465

As for your current plans, you're still not answering the basic, fundamental issues as to why the tower has been abandoned in the first place

1) Your idea of an external spiral staircase fire escape is at best flawed. It sounds like a disaster from a disability access perspective, let alone how safe it would be to use in the event of a major fire in the tower.

2) Your merchandising plan sounds good, but I can't help but think the target audience for your merch numbers in the low double figures at best

3) SABRE cannot, by dint of its constitution, campaign for or against anything, therefore the society won't be much help.

4) SABRE doesn't need a headquarters. Nobody works for SABRE full time, let alone does enough work to require permanent, paid for office space in an asbestos ridden tower next to the M6

5) The Pennine Tower view is not the most exciting from what I understand. If you could see the Sistine Chapel ceiling, Notre Dame, St Paul's and The Wailing Wall from there you might just break even. A view across the M6 and the more disinteresting part of Lancashire? No chance...
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

rhyds wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 13:07 For those unaware of the previous discussion on this topic, here's the original thread. I'd suggest getting a warm drink before starting...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35465

As for your current plans, you're still not answering the basic, fundamental issues as to why the tower has been abandoned in the first place

1) Your idea of an external spiral staircase fire escape is at best flawed. It sounds like a disaster from a disability access perspective, let alone how safe it would be to use in the event of a major fire in the tower.

2) Your merchandising plan sounds good, but I can't help but think the target audience for your merch numbers in the low double figures at best

3) SABRE cannot, by dint of its constitution, campaign for or against anything, therefore the society won't be much help.

4) SABRE doesn't need a headquarters. Nobody works for SABRE full time, let alone does enough work to require permanent, paid for office space in an asbestos ridden tower next to the M6

5) The Pennine Tower view is not the most exciting from what I understand. If you could see the Sistine Chapel ceiling, Notre Dame, St Paul's and The Wailing Wall from there you might just break even. A view across the M6 and the more disinteresting part of Lancashire? No chance...
I have thought of some rebuttals for your points.

1) I’ve used spiral staircases before, and they aren’t that dangerous. Also, my method essentially allows you to escape via a window, which is a good idea in a fire.

2) I think that lots of people can be persuaded to take an interest in the history of roads, that’s why I suggested we discuss marketing and advertising.

3) Who said that we had to canvass through SABRE? I could set up my own society where campaigning is completely legal and encouraged. Then we can discuss it there.

4) I was thinking the tower could be a sort of research centre for SABRE, where old documents could be looked at, and an annual general meeting could be held in person. Also, I have been informed in the past that asbestos can be made harmless by completely sealing it off or removing it. Obviously one of these things would be carried out if necessary.

5) I always thought the view was why it was built on the first place. Also people have claimed to see the following from it: Blackpool Tower, Morecambe Bay, a radio tower, wildlife, greenery, and, of course, the M6.

Also, why don’t we get loads of SABRE members to buy some lottery tickets? That way, if one of us wins, we can use the money to fix the tower. After all, I would like it if SABRE could actually get stuff done. I envision a version of SABRE that actively tries to get roads improved and designs road signs, amongst other things.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by c2R »

In a million years I never expected to see "play the lottery and hope for the best" as a serious funding suggestion. You've probably got more chance of NASA buying it to use it as a manned settlement on Mars than you have of getting enough lottery winnings to make your fantasy a reality...
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:33 In a million years I never expected to see "play the lottery and hope for the best" as a serious funding suggestion. You've probably got more chance of NASA buying it to use it as a manned settlement on Mars than you have of getting enough lottery winnings to make your fantasy a reality...
Weren’t they giving away £150 Million in the Euromillions?
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by c2R »

DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:39
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:33 In a million years I never expected to see "play the lottery and hope for the best" as a serious funding suggestion. You've probably got more chance of NASA buying it to use it as a manned settlement on Mars than you have of getting enough lottery winnings to make your fantasy a reality...
Weren’t they giving away £150 Million in the Euromillions?
Yes, but you don't win it just by entering...

The odds of winning it are 1 in 139,838,160 - and considerably worse if you factor in that the jackpot might be shared on the week you're lucky enough to get all the numbers... Compare that to the odds of death by plane crash, which is 1 in 11,000,000 - it's therefore really, really unlikely and not something that you could put in a serious business case.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

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DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:39
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:33 In a million years I never expected to see "play the lottery and hope for the best" as a serious funding suggestion. You've probably got more chance of NASA buying it to use it as a manned settlement on Mars than you have of getting enough lottery winnings to make your fantasy a reality...
Weren’t they giving away £150 Million in the Euromillions?
To the winning ticket, and the odds are millions to one against winning. Although I might be tempted to drop a few £ to SABRE on willing a large ticket prize, it is mainly going to be going to my family and for my retirement to my chateau vineyard in France, not something like this.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:00
DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:39
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:33 In a million years I never expected to see "play the lottery and hope for the best" as a serious funding suggestion. You've probably got more chance of NASA buying it to use it as a manned settlement on Mars than you have of getting enough lottery winnings to make your fantasy a reality...
Weren’t they giving away £150 Million in the Euromillions?
Yes, but you don't win it just by entering...

The odds of winning it are 1 in 139,838,160 - and considerably worse if you factor in that the jackpot might be shared on the week you're lucky enough to get all the numbers... Compare that to the odds of death by plane crash, which is 1 in 11,000,000 - it's therefore really, really unlikely and not something that you could put in a serious business case.
I’m sure Sabre has at least 500 members. If each of these members purchases 5 tickets twice a week, then, we end up with 5,000 tickets per week, and 260,000 tickets per year. A 260,000 in 139,838,160 chance is equal to roughly a 1 in 550 chance in winning. And, if we use the regular lottery, we could maybe get that down to maybe 1 in 60. So, odds are, we can get it done in my lifetime. And, as an act of goodwill, I recommend that the winner pocket 50-60% of the winnings, with the remaining 40-50% being used on the tower.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by RichardA35 »

DanT97, this discussion has the hallmarks of starting to go downhill like the last time.
No one is doubting your enthusiasm but there are a whole host of hurdles to overcome to achieve your vision such as Rhyds has highlighted.

Please all engage meaningfully and I appeal that all those posting in this topic do so with respect to the poster.
Following how this topic arrived on the boards, it can consider itself on a very short leash.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by Bryn666 »

In a nutshell the tower was a 1960s relic that made sense when proposed but is now more trouble than it is worth.

It would be best preserved by ensuring the structure is sound and having a simple display board inside the active service area floorspace explaining the significance of the structure and why it was listed in the first place.

Making an A1 poster for such a display would cost about £40 at a decent printers and probably be something Moto would be interested in paying for if someone did all the legwork for them. Talk of making it a museum, or some kind of space force headquarters is just pure fantasy.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by Isleworth1961 »

DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:15
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:00
DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:39

Weren’t they giving away £150 Million in the Euromillions?
Yes, but you don't win it just by entering...

The odds of winning it are 1 in 139,838,160 - and considerably worse if you factor in that the jackpot might be shared on the week you're lucky enough to get all the numbers... Compare that to the odds of death by plane crash, which is 1 in 11,000,000 - it's therefore really, really unlikely and not something that you could put in a serious business case.
I’m sure Sabre has at least 500 members. If each of these members purchases 5 tickets twice a week, then, we end up with 5,000 tickets per week, and 260,000 tickets per year. A 260,000 in 139,838,160 chance is equal to roughly a 1 in 550 chance in winning. And, if we use the regular lottery, we could maybe get that down to maybe 1 in 60. So, odds are, we can get it done in my lifetime. And, as an act of goodwill, I recommend that the winner pocket 50-60% of the winnings, with the remaining 40-50% being used on the tower.
5983 at the present count. Of which, maybe only the 83 are regular visitors and contributors? Dream on, and I've got far better things to waste my money on...or even a worthy cause.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by c2R »

Isleworth1961 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:43
DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:15
c2R wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:00

Yes, but you don't win it just by entering...

The odds of winning it are 1 in 139,838,160 - and considerably worse if you factor in that the jackpot might be shared on the week you're lucky enough to get all the numbers... Compare that to the odds of death by plane crash, which is 1 in 11,000,000 - it's therefore really, really unlikely and not something that you could put in a serious business case.
I’m sure Sabre has at least 500 members. If each of these members purchases 5 tickets twice a week, then, we end up with 5,000 tickets per week, and 260,000 tickets per year. A 260,000 in 139,838,160 chance is equal to roughly a 1 in 550 chance in winning. And, if we use the regular lottery, we could maybe get that down to maybe 1 in 60. So, odds are, we can get it done in my lifetime. And, as an act of goodwill, I recommend that the winner pocket 50-60% of the winnings, with the remaining 40-50% being used on the tower.
5983 at the present count. Of which, maybe only the 83 are regular visitors and contributors? Dream on, and I've got far better things to waste my money on...or even a worthy cause.
My secondary school maths is a bit rusty, but I don't think that's how probability of repeated trials is calculated. You'd also need to put measures in place to ensure that people don't pick the same number.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

I wish you would try and be more encouraging. I don’t like how you always shoot my ideas down.

I would prefer it if we could discuss the best options here.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by c2R »

The previous thread gave you all the advice you needed; you're looking at needing someone to give you a vast amount of money and someone else to come up with designs that allow public access to the space. As you don't own the building either, you need to engage with those who do.

That's why there isn't anywhere really left to go with the discussion - we had 15 pages of it back in 2016.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by Steven »

DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 17:03 I wish you would try and be more encouraging. I don’t like how you always shoot my ideas down.
Because, speaking quite frankly here, it's a terrible idea that's entirely both illegal and unworkable, as well as un-needed. And that's the upside.

If I struggle to get more than the odd person in SABRE to help out with relatively simple tasks to help SABRE Maps occasionally then expecting the entire membership to involve random chances, much relevant expertise and having to travel to central Lancashire, then simply expecting every single member to throw every effort into this is extremely unlikely.

SABRE does not need a "headquarters" - there are no staff, and no assets that are not online. What money we have goes entirely upon the costs of running the website - we utterly cannot afford running costs on a building or even a single part-time member of staff. Hell, we couldn't afford to pay as much as travel expenses.


As C2R has said, everything that can be said was said five years ago when you brought this up last time and the thread had to be locked due to a lack of engagement beyond "but I want you to". There's nothing new here, and nothing has been learned from the advice and comments given then.

If you really want to help SABRE, then there's loads of work needed on both the SABRE Wiki and SABRE Maps that are desperate for people to help.

However, if you want to buy the Pennine Tower from Moto, and do all the required remedial work, then no-one is discouraging you from doing so; and indeed if you were to come to us with the fact that you had as a starting point, then I'm sure appropriate advice could be given.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

Steven wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 17:57
DanT97 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 17:03 I wish you would try and be more encouraging. I don’t like how you always shoot my ideas down.
Because, speaking quite frankly here, it's a terrible idea that's entirely both illegal and unworkable, as well as un-needed. And that's the upside.

If I struggle to get more than the odd person in SABRE to help out with relatively simple tasks to help SABRE Maps occasionally then expecting the entire membership to involve random chances, much relevant expertise and having to travel to central Lancashire, then simply expecting every single member to throw every effort into this is extremely unlikely.

SABRE does not need a "headquarters" - there are no staff, and no assets that are not online. What money we have goes entirely upon the costs of running the website - we utterly cannot afford running costs on a building or even a single part-time member of staff. Hell, we couldn't afford to pay as much as travel expenses.


As C2R has said, everything that can be said was said five years ago when you brought this up last time and the thread had to be locked due to a lack of engagement beyond "but I want you to". There's nothing new here, and nothing has been learned from the advice and comments given then.

If you really want to help SABRE, then there's loads of work needed on both the SABRE Wiki and SABRE Maps that are desperate for people to help.

However, if you want to buy the Pennine Tower from Moto, and do all the required remedial work, then no-one is discouraging you from doing so; and indeed if you were to come to us with the fact that you had as a starting point, then I'm sure appropriate advice could be given.
I wish you would stop looking at the negatives and think of some positives for once. I thought the tower would look good as a viewing platform. Also, shame to Moto and their predecessors for buggering it up. They should have kept it open and paid for the damn maintenance. Given how much I now dislike them, they should be made to eat the necessary costs for maintenance.

Also, why can’t we find a millionaire who wants to help fix the tower? It seems there is plenty of them in English football. Between the players, managers, and owners, there must be people who can afford the bill. Why aren’t any of them passionate about motorway history?

And now a final thought:If Lancaster is to ambitious, then why not reopen the vacant sections of Hilton Park services to the public?
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by KeithW »

There were lots of things tried at Service Areas in the 1960's which just didnt work out including fine dining and restaurants that could seat up to 840 diners. Separate transport cafes were supposed to provide for the plebs. The reality was rather different, look at a modern MSA and you will find fast food outlets, coffee stalls, a branch of Marks and Spencers food shop and a WH Smiths. Its all about use the loos and grab a snack and go. If you want a cooked meal with a nice view there are plenty of cafes in Morecambe.

Moto are a business and a manager who loses money will be looking for a new job. This is reality and you need to recognise it. The cost of having to provide 24/7 service is high as it is, the last thing they will do is pour money into a loss making proposition. Make no mistake the cost of achieving what you want would be very high with no prospect of breaking even let alone making a profit. I used to work for construction companies and I suspect you have no idea of the true costs or the likelihood of getting the permissions needed.
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by DanT97 »

KeithW wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 18:55 There were lots of things tried at Service Areas in the 1960's which just didnt work out including fine dining and restaurants that could seat up to 840 diners. Separate transport cafes were supposed to provide for the plebs. The reality was rather different, look at a modern MSA and you will find fast food outlets, coffee stalls, a branch of Marks and Spencers food shop and a WH Smiths. Its all about use the loos and grab a snack and go. If you want a cooked meal with a nice view there are plenty of cafes in Morecambe.

Moto are a business and a manager who loses money will be looking for a new job. This is reality and you need to recognise it. The cost of having to provide 24/7 service is high as it is, the last thing they will do is pour money into a loss making proposition. Make no mistake the cost of achieving what you want would be very high with no prospect of breaking even let alone making a profit. I used to work for construction companies and I suspect you have no idea of the true costs or the likelihood of getting the permissions needed.
Why can’t we just fill the tower with grab and go type services?
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Re: The Pennine Tower

Post by RichardA35 »

OK I'm calling time on this one.
There is nothing new coming to the debate and we risk a descent into further bad language and abuse.

Dan, I'm sympathetic to the concept but to repurpose a listed building you need to have an idea that is workable and that can be, at minimum, revenue neutral.
There appears to be no real vision of the future of the building beyond "it would be a great idea because I say so"
There is no idea of the cost or how funds would be found beyond "win a few million on the lottery or find a willing oligarch"

As others have said, work on the idea, write to Moto, speak to Historic England and come back when you have some responses and an idea of what the owner would want to do with the structure and the modifications that could be allowed. Perhaps research any local history groups and seek their views, find out who was the driving force behind the listed building status. There is an awful lot to do and the project would be better served by a focus on these issues offline than arguing with the folks on here.
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