Cyclops junctions
Moderator: Site Management Team
Cyclops junctions
So we're getting a new CYCLOPS junction in Cambridge- on my cycle commute.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cambri ... 893444.amp
I've been watching it unfold, and I'm a bit mystified.
When I'm turning left, I think I can ignore the lights and just head down the continuous cycle lane, but I'm not sure.
When I'm turning right, I've always been OK with following the same rules as cars. Now, there's an orbital cycle lane, but who gives way to whom? There are single fat broken lines on the edge of the bike lane. Are they giving cyclists priority?
If they do, motorised vehicle flow will be reduced and I will be scared of misunderstandings ( no signs yet). If cars get right of way, I could have to give way 4 times on my way round the junction.
If I don't understand it, will other users?
Normal right turn for me I think.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cambri ... 893444.amp
I've been watching it unfold, and I'm a bit mystified.
When I'm turning left, I think I can ignore the lights and just head down the continuous cycle lane, but I'm not sure.
When I'm turning right, I've always been OK with following the same rules as cars. Now, there's an orbital cycle lane, but who gives way to whom? There are single fat broken lines on the edge of the bike lane. Are they giving cyclists priority?
If they do, motorised vehicle flow will be reduced and I will be scared of misunderstandings ( no signs yet). If cars get right of way, I could have to give way 4 times on my way round the junction.
If I don't understand it, will other users?
Normal right turn for me I think.
- JammyDodge
- Member
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 13:17
Re: Cyclops junctions
I think these videos may help in understanding how these types of junctions work:
https://youtu.be/7FBncwFDVHk
https://youtu.be/kqAPbmBWgMw
https://youtu.be/7FBncwFDVHk
https://youtu.be/kqAPbmBWgMw
Designing Tomorrow, Around the Past
Re: Cyclops junctions
I used this one last night (turning right from Histon Road into Gilbert Road). Turning left, you're correct, although I think you have to give way to cyclists already on the lane (like a standard roundabout). Turning right, you're effectively crossing the road at two signalised crossings where cars get right of way, so I make it three give ways: for the right turn I did, to cyclists already in the lane, to cars at the entrance to Warwick Road, and to cars on Histon Road at the north side of the junction. How are you getting four?B1040 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 18:59 So we're getting a new CYCLOPS junction in Cambridge- on my cycle commute.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cambri ... 893444.amp
I've been watching it unfold, and I'm a bit mystified.
When I'm turning left, I think I can ignore the lights and just head down the continuous cycle lane, but I'm not sure.
When I'm turning right, I've always been OK with following the same rules as cars. Now, there's an orbital cycle lane, but who gives way to whom? There are single fat broken lines on the edge of the bike lane. Are they giving cyclists priority?
If they do, motorised vehicle flow will be reduced and I will be scared of misunderstandings ( no signs yet). If cars get right of way, I could have to give way 4 times on my way round the junction.
If I don't understand it, will other users?
Normal right turn for me I think.
I'm not sure whether this one actually needs signs that it's special - there's a discussion going on in the Cambridge Cycle Campaign which is split about 50/50 on the subject - as at least for cars, nothing has changed. Personally I would prefer to be turning right as normal, but the issue is finding a safe point to get off the separate cycle lane onto the main road. (Not the only case where this is a problem: I also regularly need to turn right from Arbury Road into Campkin Road, and the similar segregation makes it almost impossible to do sensibly if the cars in your direction have a green light when you reach the junction.)
[real name Colin]
Re: Cyclops junctions
Thanks for posting these.JammyDodge wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 19:13 I think these videos may help in understanding how these types of junctions work:
https://youtu.be/7FBncwFDVHk
https://youtu.be/kqAPbmBWgMw
I don't think that there are any little lights for cyclists at the Cambidge junction yet. The lights don't have a phase for cyclists as far as I can see.
The second video is unrealistic as there are almost no waits, and almost no other traffic. My concern is how this junction will perform on a busy (overloaded pre covid during rush hour) urban junction where impatient people may well make assumptions about priorities.
Re: Cyclops junctions
I was counting each direction on each road.
So if turning right from Gilbert Road to Histon Road (N)
Clash 1, with traffic turning left off Gilbert Road may lead to
Clash 2 lights have changed and traffic heading North up Histon Road so I don't cross but if the lights change again I end up clashing with
3 Traffic heading from Gilbert Road -> Warwick road (light flow) and
4 Traffic coming out of Warwick Road.
and that wasn't even taking other cyclists into account.
I may be overthinking and catastrophising.
I agree that turning right off Histon Road is probably the hardest manoeuvre.
Pre road works cyclists turning right off the southbound Histon Road tended to cross before the junction.
Re: Cyclops junctions
CYCLOPS means Cycle Optimised Protected Signals.
So for a junction to be a CYCLOPS junction, it has to have cycles protected from motor vehicles using signals, as well as being optimised for cycles (by only requiring cycles to stop at fewest signals as possible instead of using 4 toucans to make a right turn).
If what is being proposed doesn't protect & optimise cyclists, then it isn't a CYCLOPS junction.
CYCLOPS junctions are typically used at a standard signalised crossroads, however can be adapted to allow for bespoke junction layouts.
A CYCLOPS junction will allow left turns without signals for cyclists, and aheads/rights would be made on a dedicated all-green pedestrians & cycle phase.
http://www.jctconsultancy.co.uk/Symposi ... 20TFGM.pdf This document is quite helpful at seeing how they can be Incorporated into all sorts of layouts.
CYCLOPS shouldn't impact a huge amount on motor vehicle traffic, as all cycles and pedestrians can share the same green light phase, allowing the rest of the time to be used solely for motor vehicles with most cyclists removed (some cyclists may still prefer to use the main carriageway for ahead/right since it may be quicker).
So for a junction to be a CYCLOPS junction, it has to have cycles protected from motor vehicles using signals, as well as being optimised for cycles (by only requiring cycles to stop at fewest signals as possible instead of using 4 toucans to make a right turn).
If what is being proposed doesn't protect & optimise cyclists, then it isn't a CYCLOPS junction.
CYCLOPS junctions are typically used at a standard signalised crossroads, however can be adapted to allow for bespoke junction layouts.
A CYCLOPS junction will allow left turns without signals for cyclists, and aheads/rights would be made on a dedicated all-green pedestrians & cycle phase.
http://www.jctconsultancy.co.uk/Symposi ... 20TFGM.pdf This document is quite helpful at seeing how they can be Incorporated into all sorts of layouts.
CYCLOPS shouldn't impact a huge amount on motor vehicle traffic, as all cycles and pedestrians can share the same green light phase, allowing the rest of the time to be used solely for motor vehicles with most cyclists removed (some cyclists may still prefer to use the main carriageway for ahead/right since it may be quicker).
Re: Cyclops junctions
The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.
It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Cyclops junctions
As the Camcycle blog post shows, there's three phases to the lights- a north/south general traffic, east/west general traffic, and cycle/pedestrian one.
Riding through for the first time yesterday I found that the cycle phase has plenty of time, even pausing for a pedestrian at one of the corner mini-zebras, to have made the right turn in a single phase. But then if it did bother you, there's ye olde Advanced Stop Line boxes anyway, though I appreciate that in heavier traffic merging out to be able to access those if traffic is moving may be iffy
Riding through for the first time yesterday I found that the cycle phase has plenty of time, even pausing for a pedestrian at one of the corner mini-zebras, to have made the right turn in a single phase. But then if it did bother you, there's ye olde Advanced Stop Line boxes anyway, though I appreciate that in heavier traffic merging out to be able to access those if traffic is moving may be iffy
Re: Cyclops junctions
Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39 The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.
It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?
As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
Re: Cyclops junctions
The success of this sort of scheme must depend on the effectiveness of the signals. If, like some I've encountered, the cycle signal goes red when there is no other traffic about it just encourages non compliance or use of the carriageway instead
Re: Cyclops junctions
I now see that there are lights for the cycle orbital route. I shall look at the options and what the average wait time is.
That right turn isn't the dodgiest part of my journey by a long stretch.
That right turn isn't the dodgiest part of my journey by a long stretch.
Re: Cyclops junctions
I prefer being alive to being early.solocle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39 The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.
It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?
As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Cyclops junctions
Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:26I prefer being alive to being early.solocle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39 The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.
It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?
As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
Re: Cyclops junctions
Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:26I prefer being alive to being early.solocle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04
Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.
For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?
As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- andrewwoods
- Member
- Posts: 509
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 16:23
- Location: Poole
Re: Cyclops junctions
Safety of the 12 year old, yes, but not safety of the cyclist on the road who is subjected to punishment passes from irate motorists because he's not on the cycle path.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10 Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
The Netherlands seem to manage to provide cycle infrastructure that suits both demographics. Why can't we?
Re: Cyclops junctions
Most major roads in NL have segregated facilities so very few people ride in the road, especially in urban areas where there are central reservations and carriageway widths sub 5m so no time advantage to being stuck behind slow moving cars. Fietstraats are designed with 12 year olds in mind.andrewwoods wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:21Safety of the 12 year old, yes, but not safety of the cyclist on the road who is subjected to punishment passes from irate motorists because he's not on the cycle path.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10 Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
The Netherlands seem to manage to provide cycle infrastructure that suits both demographics. Why can't we?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Cyclops junctions
It makes more sense now, especially since a lot of "road works clutter" has been removed.
Candidate for Numpty overload sitting motionless on his bike peering at his phone forcing me onto the mainline.
Candidate for Numpty overload sitting motionless on his bike peering at his phone forcing me onto the mainline.
- Richard_Fairhurst
- Member
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 13:16
Re: Cyclops junctions
That's not a design issue, though, it's a maintenance issue. If the A40 cycle track had regular vegetation patrol, and the surface was smooth and restored to full width, it'd be fine. But even the wider Oxfordshire cycle tracks have suffered major incursions this year - the one beside the A44 towards Woodstock was basically like the African Queen at one point.solocle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?
As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
Help map the world: openstreetmap.org
Re: Cyclops junctions
This is where the British design school of cycle facilities falls over.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.
They're designed for the sort of cyclists that barely exist in the UK because basically we haven't had facilities due to "vehicular cycling" (aka not-segregating traffic by speed differential)
Which then results in "but it's not getting used" and getting torn up in the adoption period because councillors are getting it in the neck for something that has no recordable impact on anyone else.
I would prefer it if facilities were designed such that there was segregation that allowed me to batter on without worrying about traffic with a 10->30 mph speed differential to me on country roads, but with the exception of a few heavily trafficked tourist routes (A82 I'm looking at you) that non-utility cyclists want to use and are avoiding, in town it's the utility cycling infrastructure that's needed, and needed 30 years ago.
Re: Cyclops junctions
I mean, I personally quite liked the A82, but it was September. What I feel is really lacking is the trunk road network (yes, I know, the A82 is trunk, but English trunk roads can be a whole different league).Nwallace wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 18:44This is where the British design school of cycle facilities falls over.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06
Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.
They're designed for the sort of cyclists that barely exist in the UK because basically we haven't had facilities due to "vehicular cycling" (aka not-segregating traffic by speed differential)
Which then results in "but it's not getting used" and getting torn up in the adoption period because councillors are getting it in the neck for something that has no recordable impact on anyone else.
I would prefer it if facilities were designed such that there was segregation that allowed me to batter on without worrying about traffic with a 10->30 mph speed differential to me on country roads, but with the exception of a few heavily trafficked tourist routes (A82 I'm looking at you) that non-utility cyclists want to use and are avoiding, in town it's the utility cycling infrastructure that's needed, and needed 30 years ago.
A sign like this should never exist, ever: (N.b this was on the old A303 through Ilminster. The section being pointed to, that I cycled a mile of, is an NSL Dual Carriageway. For added effect, this was Bank Holiday Monday, Londonward. Fortunately the bottleneck of Ilminster limited how awful it could be).
At the other end of the A303, it's again difficult to avoid the multiplex with the A30: