Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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shanklyone
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Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by shanklyone »

Hi,
Is anybody aware of any active or planned dynamic low emission zones in the UK/IRL? So for example in certain areas of Oslo, if pollution reaches a certain level then there is a temporary ban applied to diesel vehicles. This is what is meant by dynamic.
Does anybody know of any in the UK or heard of any plans?
Thanks for your help!
fras
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by fras »

None that I know of. How would it be signed and enforced ? Would I get a fine because I entered in the morning when there was no restriction, and left in the afternoon when it had been imposed. It sounds a nonsensical idea to me, frankly. The motorist is surely entitled to certainty of access times and days.
jnty
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by jnty »

I think London used to issue advisory guidance to this effect when air pollution was high, but there's no legal framework for a compulsory version in the UK.
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trickstat
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by trickstat »

Aren't there some cities in the world that use or have used a system where cars with an even number plate can come into the city on one day and those with an odd plate on the next day? I think this is as much to do with congestion as it is pollution but obviously it affects both.

I suppose with the introduction of ULEZ zones and the gradual phasing out of non-electric cars it is perhaps unlikely that anyone feels the need to propose such a system anywhere in the UK now.
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

fras wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 16:38 None that I know of. How would it be signed and enforced ? Would I get a fine because I entered in the morning when there was no restriction, and left in the afternoon when it had been imposed. It sounds a nonsensical idea to me, frankly. The motorist is surely entitled to certainty of access times and days.
On motorways it could be done by reducing the speed limit - which I understood is what happens on the M1 around Sheffield.
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Big L
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Big L »

And the M6 near Birmingham.
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by the cheesecake man »

trickstat wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 17:26 Aren't there some cities in the world that use or have used a system where cars with an even number plate can come into the city on one day and those with an odd plate on the next day? I think this is as much to do with congestion as it is pollution but obviously it affects both.
Yes. It's an excellent way of encouraging people to have two cars. Or two number plates. :devil:
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Chris Bertram »

Big L wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 19:43 And the M6 near Birmingham.
On a stretch with no fixed cameras and no (IIRC) overbridges to put the Talivans on.
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domcoop
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by domcoop »

Liverpool City Region have received funding to install roadside sensors for emissions, which they say will be used for some sort of dynamic emissions controls.

See here:- https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov. ... ion-roads/

However, it isn't at all clear to me what they intend to do with the data when they receive it! The press release isn't that helpful, other than saying it will be "linked in" to the traffic signals and enable traffic to be "controlled" or "even diverted". It isn't at all clear to me how a traffic signal can control pollution, or even divert traffic though if it isn't a VMS linked to some sort of enforcement zone.
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KeithW
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by KeithW »

domcoop wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 00:38 Liverpool City Region have received funding to install roadside sensors for emissions, which they say will be used for some sort of dynamic emissions controls.

See here:- https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov. ... ion-roads/

However, it isn't at all clear to me what they intend to do with the data when they receive it! The press release isn't that helpful, other than saying it will be "linked in" to the traffic signals and enable traffic to be "controlled" or "even diverted". It isn't at all clear to me how a traffic signal can control pollution, or even divert traffic though if it isn't a VMS linked to some sort of enforcement zone.
There are of course already some speed limits in place to reduce emissions. At present they are fixed but linking them to emissions would I think be better. I can see why on a hot sunny afternoon on the M4. in Wales when the traffic is heavy that such speed limits would be helpful but the argument for doing the same thing in February at 2 AM would be less convincing. It would be even more convincing if electric vehicles were exempt.
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trickstat
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by trickstat »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 20:02
trickstat wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 17:26 Aren't there some cities in the world that use or have used a system where cars with an even number plate can come into the city on one day and those with an odd plate on the next day? I think this is as much to do with congestion as it is pollution but obviously it affects both.
Yes. It's an excellent way of encouraging people to have two cars. Or two number plates. :devil:
Especially for wealthy people somewhere where you have some choice over the numbering of your plates.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by WHBM »

There's a bit of a mystery here in London over how the ULEZ is actually managed. Neighbour with a non-compliant vehicle is using it locally, but reported he received a Fine Letter for having just once driven through one point, at the boundary of the North Circular Road. Have the compliance cameras only been installed at the outer boundary ? I see that TfL have turned down formal FOI requests for their location, which seems inappropriate - road users surely need to know where they have to pay a charge to avoid a fine being sent to them. That was the whole thing behind erecting plates on roads with speed cameras and painting them yellow, rather than keeping them hideen behind hedges - and that's for a legal compliance court offence, not just a charging scheme.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:54 There's a bit of a mystery here in London over how the ULEZ is actually managed. Neighbour with a non-compliant vehicle is using it locally, but reported he received a Fine Letter for having just once driven through one point, at the boundary of the North Circular Road. Have the compliance cameras only been installed at the outer boundary ? I see that TfL have turned down formal FOI requests for their location, which seems inappropriate - road users surely need to know where they have to pay a charge to avoid a fine being sent to them. That was the whole thing behind erecting plates on roads with speed cameras and painting them yellow, rather than keeping them hideen behind hedges - and that's for a legal compliance court offence, not just a charging scheme.
Is the boundary not clearly signed at all entry points? I'm not sure why the consistency of enforcement is relevant. Parking on eg. double yellow lines is still unlawful even if a parking attendant doesn't see; shoplifting is still illegal even if a shop doesn't have CCTV.

Speed cameras are painted yellow due to relatively recent guidelines designed to prevent sudden braking. These guidelines aren't (explicitly) designed to help people figure out when they can break the law without risk of enforcement, nor do they flow from any intrinsic legal principle that drivers must be assisted in avoiding enforcement action when they break road laws. They are a specific safety measure for speed cameras only.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by WHBM »

jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:14 Is the boundary not clearly signed at all entry points? I'm not sure why the consistency of enforcement is relevant. Parking on eg. double yellow lines is still unlawful even if a parking attendant doesn't see; shoplifting is still illegal even if a shop doesn't have CCTV.
Poor examples. Double yellow lines are everywhere precisely because they point out what is not permitted at the actual point - a sign at the parking zone entrance saying no parking except in marked bays, and nothing else, is definitely not allowed.

Shoplifting (ie theft) is a common law criminal offence which we are all expected to know. A selective road charging scheme is not.

The original Central London scheme for original ULEZ and Congestion Charge (they use the same cameras) is fully publicised, and even appears on Google.
CC ULEZ.JPG
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:29
jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:14 Is the boundary not clearly signed at all entry points? I'm not sure why the consistency of enforcement is relevant. Parking on eg. double yellow lines is still unlawful even if a parking attendant doesn't see; shoplifting is still illegal even if a shop doesn't have CCTV.
Poor examples. Double yellow lines are everywhere precisely because they point out what is not permitted at the actual point - a sign at the parking zone entrance saying no parking except in marked bays, and nothing else, is definitely not allowed.

Shoplifting (ie theft) is a common law criminal offence which we are all expected to know. A selective road charging scheme is not.

The original Central London scheme for original ULEZ and Congestion Charge (they use the same cameras) is fully publicised, and even appears on Google.CC ULEZ.JPG
The expanded ULEZ map is publicly available and every entrance point should be signed. I don't see the difference between double yellow lines except for the continual reminder given by the paint, although perhaps pay-and-display parking is a better comparison: if you don't pay, you have certainly acted unlawfully but may or may not get a fine. That sounds like precisely what happened to your neighbour - they unlawfully failed to pay the ULEZ charge on every entry to the zone and then got unlucky, caught, and fined for non-payment.

I notice TfL has an 'auto-pay' feature for ULEZ (unlike the congestion charge where I think there's a discount if you pay in advance, presumably to avoid people chancing it on the off-chance they aren't caught by an entry camera) so it must be fairly confident in its enforcement coverage, but given the size it would be amazing if there weren't some gaps.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by WHBM »

My point has not come across. It seems it is possible to drive around inside the ULEZ boundary (but not cross into the old central one) without being charged, which surprised me. The extent to which that is possible should be announced.

The discount for congestion charge pre-pay, having become the near-universal method, has been withdrawn.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:47 My point has not come across. It seems it is possible to drive around inside the ULEZ boundary (but not cross into the old central one) without being charged, which surprised me. The extent to which that is possible should be announced.
I get what you're saying, but I don't understand why enforcement gaps for a clearly signed restriction need to be made public. I think speed camera discourse (and the general and growing tolerance for widespread lawlessness on roads) have skewed motorists' perceptions here, but there is no expectation in any other sphere of life that people should be notified when it is safe for them to act in contravention of the law.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Telstarbox »

Obviously there won't be a camera on every back street in the ULEZ so in some suburbs, you might "get lucky" and be able to drive say half a mile without coming across one. That doesn't mean that short drives by non-compliant vehicles should be encouraged by disclosing all the camera locations.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Chris5156 »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:47It seems it is possible to drive around inside the ULEZ boundary (but not cross into the old central one) without being charged, which surprised me.
Think about how many entry points there are to the ULEZ now that it extends to the North and South Circulars, and then think about how many cameras and how much associated infrastructure would be required to make it as watertight as the Congestion Charge boundary. It's not realistic. So there are cameras at the main entry points and some scattered within the zone, but the result is that it is theoretically possible to enter, drive around and leave without passing a camera, either if you're lucky or if you sneak around on back streets.
The extent to which that is possible should be announced.
Why? You're saying, as jnty keeps pointing out, that TfL should be telling people how to evade a legal obligation.

It doesn't matter if you're caught or not, it's your responsibility as a motorist to observe the signs and meet your statutory obligations. If the speed limit is 30, you are expected to drive at or below that speed whether your speed is observed or not. If parking is prohibited, you are expected not to park whether or not anyone comes along to issue you with a ticket. And if you enter the ULEZ driving a non-compliant vehicle, you are expected to pay the charge whether or not you believe you have passed an enforcement camera. The ULEZ does not apply only to vehicles that are spotted by an enforcement camera, it applies to a geographical area, and the boundaries of that area are publicised. That's all that is necessary.

Besides, from TfL's perspective, if it proved uneconomical to make the boundary completely watertight, then the only sensible strategy is to withhold camera locations, because uncertainty about where they are is the best way to ensure people err on the side of caution and pay the charge. The Congestion Charge is an entirely different proposition - there are cameras at every entry point, so publicising their locations demonstrates that the zone is watertight and that attempts to enter the zone without passing a camera will fail.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:47 My point has not come across. It seems it is possible to drive around inside the ULEZ boundary (but not cross into the old central one) without being charged, which surprised me. The extent to which that is possible should be announced.

The discount for congestion charge pre-pay, having become the near-universal method, has been withdrawn.
If you live in London you would have to have been hiding in a fallout shelter not to know the ULEZ extents. We pick up London radio stations up here on DAB that have been advertising the expansion since about May. My dad knows more about the ULEZ than he does the Greater Manchester CAZ.
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