Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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WHBM
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by WHBM »

You still haven't got me. If you are on Autopay it seems you can drive locally round the inner London borough without charge. Therefore that should be made public. This is a meant to be an honest public authority, not a scam.
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Chris5156
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 16:51You still haven't got me. If you are on Autopay it seems you can drive locally round the inner London borough without charge. Therefore that should be made public.
OK, that I can understand. If I set up an Autopay account, but it does not bill me every time I drive in the ULEZ, it would be reasonable to want to know whether I wasn't charged because the system never saw me, or if there was some problem with the Autopay mechanism that would cause me to be charged later or even erroneously incur a penalty.

My question is, what do you want TfL to do? What sort of publicity do you think would be appropriate? I don't think they will ever publicise the location of all the cameras, because it would simply invite rat-running along minor roads leading off the North and South Circulars and encourage mass evasion of the charge. So would you have them just announce to the public that there aren't many cameras and you might not get fined?

To go back to jnty's analogy, should the police issue publicity saying that there aren't many patrols about today so you might not be caught speeding, so why not put your foot down?
This is a meant to be an honest public authority, not a scam.
What sort of a scam leaves you better off than if things were done by the rules?
jnty
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by jnty »

I think it is quite interesting that they're doing "autopay" despite having incomplete coverage - I didn't realise that - and do wonder if there's some kind of theoretical duty to dob yourself in if it doesn't catch you? Otherwise it seems like a license to test the system and, if widespread, there's no doubt that enforcement gaps will soon be common knowledge. But yes, the solution certainly isn't to publicise the gaps!
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Vierwielen
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 19:39
fras wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 16:38 None that I know of. How would it be signed and enforced ? Would I get a fine because I entered in the morning when there was no restriction, and left in the afternoon when it had been imposed. It sounds a nonsensical idea to me, frankly. The motorist is surely entitled to certainty of access times and days.
On motorways it could be done by reducing the speed limit - which I understood is what happens on the M1 around Sheffield.
I have seen signs on the around Eindhoven that prohibit lorries from the autoroute at certain times of the day. I also seem to recall havinhg seen similar signs on the Autobahn close to Frankfurt, though I would not swear to it.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by baroudeur »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:54 There's a bit of a mystery here in London over how the ULEZ is actually managed. Neighbour with a non-compliant vehicle is using it locally, but reported he received a Fine Letter for having just once driven through one point, at the boundary of the North Circular Road. Have the compliance cameras only been installed at the outer boundary ? I see that TfL have turned down formal FOI requests for their location, which seems inappropriate - road users surely need to know where they have to pay a charge to avoid a fine being sent to them. That was the whole thing behind erecting plates on roads with speed cameras and painting them yellow, rather than keeping them hideen behind hedges - and that's for a legal compliance court offence, not just a charging scheme.
Cameras are not required to be painted yellow or have warning signs. Many in my area are grey although the newer types mounted on high poles are yellow and are not so easy to see.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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baroudeur wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 14:36 Cameras are not required to be painted yellow or have warning signs. Many in my area are grey although the newer types mounted on high poles are yellow and are not so easy to see.
Speed cameras started to be painted yellow in the days when the "Safety" (i.e. Speed) Camera Partnerships were allowed to keep the money raised from fines from cameras to "invest" in more cameras ("hypothecation" of revenue). This was, with some justification, criticised as being a pyramid scheme, and there was pressure from motoring organisations (no, not just the ABD, AA and RAC were vocal about this as well) for the cameras being operated under those schemes to be made visible to avoid the suggestion that difficult-to-spot grey cameras were being sited to entrap motorists in places where their safety benefit was questionable to boost fine revenue.

Police force areas with no camera partnership, and where fine revenue continued to go direct to the public purse, were under no obligation to follow suit, and I remember in 2003 driving out of Greater London, where the cameras were yellow, into Surrey, where they remained grey. North Yorkshire and Durham also resisted the pressure to form camera partnerships and the police maintained direct control of speed enforcement; however they had no fixed cameras and used vans instead.

The days of the hypothecation of fine income ended quite some time ago, and the money now goes the same way as any fine income in all police force areas. But the spread of yellow camera housings has created the expectation that speed cameras will be yellow, so yellow they are.
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c2R
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by c2R »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:39
WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:47 My point has not come across. It seems it is possible to drive around inside the ULEZ boundary (but not cross into the old central one) without being charged, which surprised me. The extent to which that is possible should be announced.

The discount for congestion charge pre-pay, having become the near-universal method, has been withdrawn.
If you live in London you would have to have been hiding in a fallout shelter not to know the ULEZ extents. We pick up London radio stations up here on DAB that have been advertising the expansion since about May. My dad knows more about the ULEZ than he does the Greater Manchester CAZ.

The signing isn't very good though....
* the old combined ULEZ/CC signs on and approaching the inner ring are a real mess, with big grey patches on them, and patches, in a different font, to indicate that the CC now applies for longer hours and on a Sunday.
* there doesn't appear to be any form of advance warning that you may enter the zone on ADS signs, so, for example, at Redbridge Roundabout the only sign is a fairly small one when it is essentially too late - there should be more paint on the road and alteration of ADS signs to indicate that you're at risk of entering it
* there is confusion between the HGV ULEZ and car ULEZ at the same roundabout, with confusing signage like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5778674 ... 384!8i8192 - clearly for cars you can carry on on the North Circular to avoid the zone

I'm sure some people will be caught out or forced to pay this week because the Woolwich ferry isn't operating.

That said, the zone, coupled with the replacement of busses, vans, and taxis with hybrids etc. does seem to be making a difference to air quality - driving round inside the North Circular yesterday, the air seemed cleaner (although traffic levels are still very high - lots of electric cars and hybrids; and I guess more petrol cars emitting higher levels of CO2 than diesels), and obviously within the congestion zone at the centre there's hardly any traffic now allowing you to drive around with ease.

Outside the north circular seems another story though; congestion seems far worse, I guess because anyone who needs to re-route to avoid the ULEZ will be doing so.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by Herned »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 16:51 You still haven't got me. If you are on Autopay it seems you can drive locally round the inner London borough without charge. Therefore that should be made public. This is a meant to be an honest public authority, not a scam.
You can walk around a shop and pick things up and walk out without paying too. That doesn't make the tills a scam. What a bizarre attitude.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by traffic-light-man »

domcoop wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 00:38 Liverpool City Region have received funding to install roadside sensors for emissions, which they say will be used for some sort of dynamic emissions controls.

See here:- https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov. ... ion-roads/

However, it isn't at all clear to me what they intend to do with the data when they receive it! The press release isn't that helpful, other than saying it will be "linked in" to the traffic signals and enable traffic to be "controlled" or "even diverted". It isn't at all clear to me how a traffic signal can control pollution, or even divert traffic though if it isn't a VMS linked to some sort of enforcement zone.
I think that article does quite well at explaining how the air quality monitors (or at least their data) can be used to influence the traffic signals, but it's rather lacking in outlining the strategies like you say. The Zephyr is a nice piece of kit, particularly when you compare it to some of the older air quality monitors that you see kicking about, like this or this (though I do appreciate they might well do different tasks).

I believe the general tact when it comes to signals specifically is to try and 'gate' the traffic outside of the urban area, and then keep it flowing through the urban area, so the emissions build-up isn't eliminated but is moved to somewhere deemed less harmful (yes, that's objective). There's also the scope to do something with VMS and signals, for example 'to reach X, use X' and adjust the signals accordingly to entice and cater for that 'diverted' traffic, but that's still all based on attempts at influencing driver behaviour rather than an all out restrictions. It's also possible for traffic modelling software to take this data live from on-street equipment and generate a forecast, which can then be used to influence the implementation of these strategies.

There's nothing new in the basis of these techniques, it's mainly just that the trigger is different. How it'll work on-street in the LCR, I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure you'd even notice it happening in real-time unless they put up a VMS message to say so.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by avtur »

WHBM wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 16:51 You still haven't got me. If you are on Autopay it seems you can drive locally round the inner London borough without charge. Therefore that should be made public. This is a meant to be an honest public authority, not a scam.
I'm not sure I understand the significance of auto pay in this. I thought the idea of the ULEZ was that you were charged when crossing the boundary into the zone and that one payment allowed for 24 hours of movement to and fro across the boundary. Also, if one has a none complaint vehicle which lives within the zone and only ever moves within the zone then there is no charge. Is this not how it works?
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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avtur wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 09:32 I'm not sure I understand the significance of auto pay in this. I thought the idea of the ULEZ was that you were charged when crossing the boundary into the zone and that one payment allowed for 24 hours of movement to and fro across the boundary. Also, if one has a none complaint vehicle which lives within the zone and only ever moves within the zone then there is no charge. Is this not how it works?
That appears to be how it works in practice, to an extent, but not how it's presented, where it's long been stated that any use within the overall zone is charged. It's interesting that different people here have different opinions on this. Given that there's no toll booths, you are just expected to pay on line, but given no idea if you have passed a checking point and thus payment is due. Autopay works fine with this, but not for those who pay by the day.
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Chris5156
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

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c2R wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 07:43 * there doesn't appear to be any form of advance warning that you may enter the zone on ADS signs, so, for example, at Redbridge Roundabout the only sign is a fairly small one when it is essentially too late - there should be more paint on the road and alteration of ADS signs to indicate that you're at risk of entering it
That appears to be an oversight at Redbridge Roundabout, in that case - I’ve yet to see a junction approaching the North/South Circulars where the advance direction signs haven’t been changed to show the ULEZ logo. The most extreme example I found was at Hogarth Roundabout, which is a turn-around point for non compliant traffic coming off the M4. The signs there have ULEZ on every arm! But I can believe that it’s not been done quite as well in every location.

The blurring of LEZ and ULEZ is a real problem at that specific location. Too late now, but the LEZ signs could do with coach and HGV symbols on them to indicate who they apply to.
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:10
avtur wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 09:32 I'm not sure I understand the significance of auto pay in this. I thought the idea of the ULEZ was that you were charged when crossing the boundary into the zone and that one payment allowed for 24 hours of movement to and fro across the boundary. Also, if one has a none complaint vehicle which lives within the zone and only ever moves within the zone then there is no charge. Is this not how it works?
That appears to be how it works in practice, to an extent, but not how it's presented, where it's long been stated that any use within the overall zone is charged. It's interesting that different people here have different opinions on this. Given that there's no toll booths, you are just expected to pay on line, but given no idea if you have passed a checking point and thus payment is due. Autopay works fine with this, but not for those who pay by the day.
To use the supermarket analogy, isn't this just the same as paying for your full shop using a self-checkout only to discover your friend accidentally got something for free later on because the cashier forgot to scan it? Fundamentally it's just an error - you don't consequently get the right to free items on your next shop.
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trickstat
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Re: Dynamic Low Emission Zones

Post by trickstat »

I did actually drive within the ULEZ a little yesterday. While I wasn't looking for them particularly (I know my car is compliant), I only noticed one smallish sign.
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