M25 blockade protesters jailed

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WHBM
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M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by WHBM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59307679

It is not quite apparent to me why it has taken a series if legal injunctions against them, and further blockages, before the perpetrators have come to court. Because I'm pretty sure if I did a protest across the motorway I would be arrested pretty sharpish, and there would be one or more laws already in place which could be used for enforcement. Are there not ? Whatever happened to S.137 of the 1980 Highways Act ?
If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

WHBM wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 19:36 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59307679

It is not quite apparent to me why it has taken a series if legal injunctions against them, and further blockages, before the perpetrators have come to court. Because I'm pretty sure if I did a protest across the motorway I would be arrested pretty sharpish, and there would be one or more laws already in place which could be used for enforcement. Are there not ? Whatever happened to S.137 of the 1980 Highways Act ?
If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence
What's the penalty under the RTA for obstruction - probably just a fine - by using civil law and getting an injunction, the courts have much wider imprisonment powers for contempt of court.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by Alderpoint »

WHBM wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 19:36
If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence
That was not what they have been convicted of. The convictions are for breaching the injunction - i.e. contempt of court - which is a rather more serious offence.
Those who breach the injunctions could be found in contempt of court and face a maximum penalty of two years in prison or an unlimited fine.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by A320Driver »

Good. Let them be made an example of!
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by M4 Cardiff »

I did read that these 'protesters' actually wanted to have been jailed but before the climate conference, so they could make claims that the UK were holding political prisoners over the climate issue. By delaying the court case a little, and making sure that the sentences given were for breach of the injunction, the court system has cleverly managed to avoid that accusation.

At least now the precident has been set for jailing those who breach the injunction, hopefully any more that try it can in future be remanded, rather than bailed until their court date.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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Observing this whole saga has been a frustrating experience, personally. What these people are protesting for is fundamentally a good thing that not only benefits the environment but people themselves (lower bills). Yet the way they've gone about it, while undoubtedly gaining coverage and recognition, has been so disruptive it's just left a sour taste in the mouths of most people. You're now more likely to have members of the public being more spitefully resistant to the topic because of these protests, when they may have been neutral or maybe even positive beforehand.

Protesting is a core foundation of democracy, but winding up hundreds of thousands of people on the M25 who were just trying to earn their wage at 8 in the morning ain't it!
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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jcdti wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 23:21 fundamentally a good thing that not only benefits the environment but people themselves (lower bills).
How is something where I have to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a contractor on re-insulating my home a "lower bill" ?
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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WHBM wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 08:19
jcdti wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 23:21 fundamentally a good thing that not only benefits the environment but people themselves (lower bills).
How is something where I have to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a contractor on re-insulating my home a "lower bill" ?
It's called "invest to save"... we've been promoting this on roads for years and it falls on deaf ears because people can't think beyond one financial year. Quite why anyone is happy to live in an inefficient house that piddles heat into the sky is beyond me, though.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 09:52 Quite why anyone is happy to live in an inefficient house that piddles heat into the sky is beyond me, though.
Well there aren't that many of these left. The insulation regs were substantially updated in 1983, so that's 40 years of modern stock (mine included). I do get surprised at some of the high average prices quoted for gas bills, ours are way under that. Many of the rest of current properties have had loft insulation fitted, and quite a proportion cavity wall infill as well; a surveyor wrote about what a proportion of these they encountered nowadays.

For older properties it's a considerable rip-up of the structure to install. It's just as well we have substantial loft insulation fitted - the chaos that would ensue to tip it all out to work in there would be immense.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 09:52
WHBM wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 08:19
jcdti wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 23:21 fundamentally a good thing that not only benefits the environment but people themselves (lower bills).
How is something where I have to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a contractor on re-insulating my home a "lower bill" ?
It's called "invest to save"... we've been promoting this on roads for years and it falls on deaf ears because people can't think beyond one financial year. Quite why anyone is happy to live in an inefficient house that piddles heat into the sky is beyond me, though.
Because not everyone has a few thousand quid lying around in order to "spend to save" like that. All the recent publicity about air/ground source heat pumps is very quick to mention that they're fantastically energy efficient and cheap(ish) to run, while the installation costs of £10k+ aren't nearly as well publicised...
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by rhyds »

I'm glad this lot have been given a jail sentence, however my preferred punishment would have been much more evil.

Quite simply, each member of this middle class wombat group would be required to spend a week installing old style 1980s fibreglass loft insulation with but a mask for protection. Unfortunately, such cruel and unusual punishment is probably banned by the do-gooders from The Hague...
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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WHBM wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 08:19
jcdti wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 23:21 fundamentally a good thing that not only benefits the environment but people themselves (lower bills).
How is something where I have to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a contractor on re-insulating my home a "lower bill" ?
That depends on how you price the cost of the emissions released into the atmosphere by using unnecessary amounts of fuel. When it comes to insulation this is one of those situations where improving insulation really can be a very good long term investment. The days of cheap gas, electricity and heating oil are gone and are never coming back. That said you have to draw a rational limit. Overdo the insulation and draught prevention and you can end up in a world of hurt from condensation and mould.

According to Offgem the average home heating bill is about 50% of total energy cost, something over £650 per annum and few houses built before the 1980's were adequately insulated, simply topping up loft insulation can save a shed load of money and not cost that much. Replacing good double glazed windows with triple or 4 layer glazing is rarely cost effective. The first step should always be to get an independent energy efficiency survey done. Contractors want to get your business and have been known to overstate the case. When it comes to loft insulation if you are yound anf fit enough installing insulation yourself is not a big problem

Back in the 1960's houses typically were built with 20-50 mm of loft insulation and single glazed windows. The recommended level today is over 250 mm of insulation and double or triple glazed windows. Now new windows are expensive but loft insulation is not. For a 4 bed detached house you are talking about £1250 or so. If the windows are single glazed but in good condition or you are not allowed to replace them secondary glazing is an option. I lived in a house on Romney Marsh that was listed so replacing the sash windows was verboten but clip in secondary glazing panels were OK. With no gas available the savings on electricity and solid fuel were considerable.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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rhyds wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:27 All the recent publicity about air/ground source heat pumps is very quick to mention that they're fantastically energy efficient and cheap(ish) to run, while the installation costs of £10k+ aren't nearly as well publicised...
Indeed. I suspect that heat pumps will be the next "home improvements" sector, after double glazing and all that, to be invaded by the grey market high-priced loans merchants, subcontracting the actual installation to cowboy contractors while stitching people up for overpriced loans for years ahead and paying out a big proportion of revenue to door-to-door hard sell canvassers and other marketing expenses. I'm sure they are loving Insulate Britain doing their market awareness advertising for them.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by KeithW »

jcdti wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 23:21 Observing this whole saga has been a frustrating experience, personally. What these people are protesting for is fundamentally a good thing that not only benefits the environment but people themselves (lower bills). Yet the way they've gone about it, while undoubtedly gaining coverage and recognition, has been so disruptive it's just left a sour taste in the mouths of most people. You're now more likely to have members of the public being more spitefully resistant to the topic because of these protests, when they may have been neutral or maybe even positive beforehand.

Protesting is a core foundation of democracy, but winding up hundreds of thousands of people on the M25 who were just trying to earn their wage at 8 in the morning ain't it!

I am afraid there has always been a minority of dedicated protestors in search of a cause. In the 1980's when I worked at Dungeness B Nuclear power station we were regularly targetted by environmental activists and one of their favourite themes was that we should not use nuclear power when there was so much cheap coal and gas around.

The odd thing was relatively close by was a power station that I would have been happy to picket. Richborough which was originally designed to burn fuel oil was converted to burn orimulsion which was type of bitumen from Venezuela that contained a high level of sulphur. In the end it was only abandoned when local farmers sued the operating company (National Power) for the damages been done to their crops. National power decided they didnt need a desulphurisation scrubber even though the company that sold the stuff stated that it would be required. This had been proposed when the stations were run by the CEGB but rejected by the board
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by KeithW »

WHBM wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:37
rhyds wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:27 All the recent publicity about air/ground source heat pumps is very quick to mention that they're fantastically energy efficient and cheap(ish) to run, while the installation costs of £10k+ aren't nearly as well publicised...
Indeed. I suspect that heat pumps will be the next "home improvements" sector, after double glazing and all that, to be invaded by the grey market high-priced loans merchants, subcontracting the actual installation to cowboy contractors while stitching people up for overpriced loans for years ahead and paying out a big proportion of revenue to door-to-door hard sell canvassers and other marketing expenses. I'm sure they are loving Insulate Britain doing their market awareness advertising for them.

Well given that the installation of gas boilers in new builds after 2025 is banned this should be no surprise. Its something I oppose by the way simply because the extra power needed will largely be met by Combined Cycle Gas Turbine power stations which when you factor in distribution losses are actually less efficient than modern gas boilers. The result will be a net INCREASE in gas consumption and CO2 emissions.

Something more worthy of consideration is the use of domestic microturbine installations where small gas turbine units generate power and the waste heat is used for domestic hot water and heating. A home CHP installation in fact.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

Post by WHBM »

One wonders what jobs the protesters have (or had). Possibly in further education, friendly local authorities, or "chartities", but not much else. Now they have criminal records in the public domain, let alone jail experience, the vast majority of potential employers doing due diligence will not touch them with a barge pole.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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KeithW wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:33
According to Offgem the average home heating bill is about 50% of total energy cost, something over £650 per annum and few houses built before the 1980's were adequately insulated, simply topping up loft insulation can save a shed load of money and not cost that much. Replacing good double glazed windows with triple or 4 layer glazing is rarely cost effective. The first step should always be to get an independent energy efficiency survey done. Contractors want to get your business and have been known to overstate the case. When it comes to loft insulation if you are yound anf fit enough installing insulation yourself is not a big problem

Back in the 1960's houses typically were built with 20-50 mm of loft insulation and single glazed windows. The recommended level today is over 250 mm of insulation and double or triple glazed windows. Now new windows are expensive but loft insulation is not. For a 4 bed detached house you are talking about £1250 or so. If the windows are single glazed but in good condition or you are not allowed to replace them secondary glazing is an option. I lived in a house on Romney Marsh that was listed so replacing the sash windows was verboten but clip in secondary glazing panels were OK. With no gas available the savings on electricity and solid fuel were considerable.
I think I've said this before but my problem with loft insulation is that I've got a bit of the external roof between the actual ceiling and a false ceiling, with only about 18 inches between them. All the loft insulation (which could use topping up regardless) is on the proper ceiling. Don't fancy putting any weigh on the false ceiling either; it certainly doubt it'll support my weight to wiggle in between to reach the uninsulated roof.

The front door (straight in to the living room, and there's no way in hell I'm going to replace it with a plastic one) isn't great either; a thick curtain over it helps a bit. Ditto with the cat flap, get quite a strong cold draught through that; that's through the back door in to a porch that I'd like to replace anyway though.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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I'd love to improve my loft insulation. I wouldn't mind the cost as I know that I'd save the money long term. However, the downside is that the new insulation would be so thick that it would cover the beams and I couldn't put boards on top (which would defeat the object anyway), so all that storage space would be lost. It would also become very difficult to safely access the loft to do electrical work or anything else - i.e finding the wires knowing where to stand. Another issue I've heard from people I know is that in summer the house overheats as the hot air in the house can't rise through the loft area to escape.

As for cavity wall insulation, I've been put off that due to horror stories about contractors who don't know what they're doing and then you end with rising damp in the walls.

I do want to help save the planet so the day will probably come or maybe it'd be easier to buy a new house!
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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IAN wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:53 I'd love to improve my loft insulation. I wouldn't mind the cost as I know that I'd save the money long term. However, the downside is that the new insulation would be so thick that it would cover the beams and I couldn't put boards on top (which would defeat the object anyway), so all that storage space would be lost. It would also become very difficult to safely access the loft to do electrical work or anything else - i.e finding the wires knowing where to stand. Another issue I've heard from people I know is that in summer the house overheats as the hot air in the house can't rise through the loft area to escape.

As for cavity wall insulation, I've been put off that due to horror stories about contractors who don't know what they're doing and then you end with rising damp in the walls.

I do want to help save the planet so the day will probably come or maybe it'd be easier to buy a new house!
Regarding insulation causing a building to become uncomfortably hot my employers had one of their buildings fitted with 150mm/6" of externally mounted insulation and then spray rendered over. It was so effective that within a year they'd had to retrofit air conditioning to the meeting rooms as they became unbearably hot in summer!

As for cavity wall filling, that is indeed a terrible idea in most cases, as you're effectively relying on the insulation and/or the installers to seal the woodworm like holes they've bored in to your walls to stop the damp getting in, and most of the time they can't. Bonus points for when things like fuse boxes get filled with insulation by accident.
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Re: M25 blockade protesters jailed

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IAN wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:53I'd love to improve my loft insulation. I wouldn't mind the cost as I know that I'd save the money long term. However, the downside is that the new insulation would be so thick that it would cover the beams and I couldn't put boards on top (which would defeat the object anyway), so all that storage space would be lost. It would also become very difficult to safely access the loft to do electrical work or anything else - i.e finding the wires knowing where to stand. Another issue I've heard from people I know is that in summer the house overheats as the hot air in the house can't rise through the loft area to escape.
Products exist to make this work - you just need some loftlegs!
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