Road Collision Investigation Branch

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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

cb a1 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 18:15 I would expect the main findings of the RCIB would be to recommend mandatory re-testing of drivers and much sticter regulations on passing in the first place and more health issues being identified for the removal of driving licence...

I _so_ hope so! It's absolutely crazy that people aren't periodically retested (and the period should get shorter as we get older).

I'm approaching 60. I don't see why I shouldn't have _some_ sort of test every 3-5 years at this point, getting shorter as I get towards 70 and onwards.
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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:12
All in favour... as long as the subsequent recommendations it produces are constructive and not simply one of:
  • Lower the speed limit
  • Add traffic lights
  • Add a roundabout
  • Add traffic calming
which seems to the existing answer to every problem.
Why are those automatically assumed to be un-"constructive"

Even if we ignore the usual use of "constructive" to mean "what I already agree with"
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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

Vierwielen wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 22:23
If I remeber correctly, one of the factors behind the Southall collision was poorly sited overhead signals which has led to a good deal more automation in the cab. It woudl appear that the underlying cause of the recent Salisbury collision was "leaves on the line". I recently saw a picture of that junction taken many years ago with steam engines pulling the trains. Not a tree is sight - you did not want sparks from the stream engine starting a line-side fire.
To help people looking up the details:

That wasn't Southall (which was a simple SPAD due to ATP etc being disabled and the driver not paying attention). The siting/sighting one was the Ladbroke Road crash.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

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cb a1 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 18:15
I wonder what proportion of rail and air accidents are due to 'operator error'?

Also, where there is rail or air operator error, the numbers of people involved in providing additional training is a relatively small group who have more of a vested interest in getting it right.

My recollection from when I did the Road Safety module at Uni was that for road collisions, driver error was 97%.

Changes to the transport network or vehicles will be minimal because that's all the road safety industry for the last 50 years have been able to focus on.
If you include General Aviation aka private planes you will find a high percentage of operator error. Two events spring to mind, the crash that killed JFK Junior happened because he was not Instrument rated, flew at night becoming spatially disoriented and ended up in the sea. The second is the death of Graham Hill landing at Elstree, the approach was too low and he brushed a tree, lost control and crashed. In 2017 the UK AAIB investigated 17 crashes which resulted in 28 fatalities. They also assisted in investigating another 7 fatal crashes involving British private pilots.
/
In the USA the death rate amongst private pilots is high enough that most life insurance policies do not cover that risk.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by KeithW »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 23:47 I _so_ hope so! It's absolutely crazy that people aren't periodically retested (and the period should get shorter as we get older).

I'm approaching 60. I don't see why I shouldn't have _some_ sort of test every 3-5 years at this point, getting shorter as I get towards 70 and onwards.
There is nothing to stop you doing it. When I hit 65 I took a driver assessment course with an advanced driving instructor. Given that I had passed my car test in 1972 it seemed about time.

olderdrivers.org.uk/driver-assessment/find-a-driver-assessment/#:~:text=This%20type%20of%20driving%20assessment,taking%20further%20training%20if%20necessary.

When I hit 70 next year I will do it again. He was quite happy with my driving in general but made some minor points about my driving style. Overall it was a good experience and helped my confidence,
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Barkstar
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

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KeithW wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:19 There is nothing to stop you doing it. When I hit 65 I took a driver assessment course with an advanced driving instructor. Given that I had passed my car test in 1972 it seemed about time.

olderdrivers.org.uk/driver-assessment/find-a-driver-assessment/#:~:text=This%20type%20of%20driving%20assessment,taking%20further%20training%20if%20necessary.

When I hit 70 next year I will do it again. He was quite happy with my driving in general but made some minor points about my driving style. Overall it was a good experience and helped my confidence,
We really think my Dad should stop but he's been very stubborn about accepting he's not the man he was and this includes his driving. We did have a conversation a decade ago when such a decision wasn't as imminent. At the time he seemed accepting but now he's less so, egged on by his partner, who made it very clear she thinks it isn't any of our business.

After following your link and struggling a little with their website it would seem the only way to get an assessment with Rospa is to be a member. An IAM assessment is £65 and open to all.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by KeithW »

Barkstar wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:16 We really think my Dad should stop but he's been very stubborn about accepting he's not the man he was and this includes his driving. We did have a conversation a decade ago when such a decision wasn't as imminent. At the time he seemed accepting but now he's less so, egged on by his partner, who made it very clear she thinks it isn't any of our business.

After following your link and struggling a little with their website it would seem the only way to get an assessment with Rospa is to be a member. An IAM assessment is £65 and open to all.
Yep that's the route I took, what was nice was that the instructor was about my age :) More to the point he tailored the session to my needs. Most of his clients were nervous on motorways and high speed dual carriageways, having spent half my life on such routes I was really more interested in polishing my city driving skills.
DB617
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by DB617 »

skiddaw05 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 13:46
Peter Freeman wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:25 In each of those anecdotes, presumably from many years ago, the missing item was a continuous white centreline. Does the UK now have a far greater density of such markings?
I can't imagine there has been much of an increase unless there has been any significant changes to the visibility criteria guiding their use
When they are done, they're not always done well. While looking for an overtake last night on the road from Bristol to Bath I noticed a section of solid white line on the opposite side with a broken white line on my side, which led directly to a keep left island in the middle of the road. Encouraging the driver to either put their life at risk or break the law in a dangerous fashion by going around the island.
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Bryn666
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by Bryn666 »

DB617 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 13:24
skiddaw05 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 13:46
Peter Freeman wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:25 In each of those anecdotes, presumably from many years ago, the missing item was a continuous white centreline. Does the UK now have a far greater density of such markings?
I can't imagine there has been much of an increase unless there has been any significant changes to the visibility criteria guiding their use
When they are done, they're not always done well. While looking for an overtake last night on the road from Bristol to Bath I noticed a section of solid white line on the opposite side with a broken white line on my side, which led directly to a keep left island in the middle of the road. Encouraging the driver to either put their life at risk or break the law in a dangerous fashion by going around the island.
There is a general lack of competence with road markings. Chapter 5 is routinely ignored and "engineers" who know less about road markings than my 6 year old son does routinely get away with lining schemes that actively encourage dangerous behaviour through contradictory meanings or dilution of hazard lines so they now have no meaning whatsoever.

We keep banging on about driver standards but quite frankly whilst this country is riddled with the cancer of crap "engineers" we can't expect drivers to be much better. I'd argue that highway engineers should be licenced and subject to mandatory refresher training just as much as drivers are.

I'd also make it crystal clear that contributory negligence cuts both ways. Badly designed and badly maintained roads would soon get fixed.
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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

KeithW wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:19 There is nothing to stop you doing it. When I hit 65 I took a driver assessment course with an advanced driving instructor. Given that I had passed my car test in 1972 it seemed about time.

Good point, my Dad took a lesson with an instructor when he was preparing to get back on the road for the first time in some years, when he was about 80
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

KeithW wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:13 If you include General Aviation aka private planes you will find a high percentage of operator error.
If you want to find out what a mess that business can be, look at the recent court case relating to the crash that killed footballer Emiliano Sala.
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by KeithW »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 02:19
KeithW wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:13 If you include General Aviation aka private planes you will find a high percentage of operator error.
If you want to find out what a mess that business can be, look at the recent court case relating to the crash that killed footballer Emiliano Sala.
In that case there was probably a technical issue as high levels of carbon monoxide were found in his blood, the conclusion was that it was most likely that he and the pilot were incapacitated by a leak from the engine. The commonest form of accident with private aircraft is pilot error.
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 07:59 The commonest form of accident with private aircraft is pilot error.
I guess the massive safety gulf between general and commercial aviation proves the nebulousness of the term 'human error'. Both sectors consist of roughly similar humans operating the same kind of machines but the difference is that commercial aviation has put years of effort into equipment, procedures and regulation to drive out human error by automating them away or reducing their impact. If a solo private pilot falls asleep and crashes their plane, is it a case of "well that was silly, human error" or is it a regulatory/procedural error that they were permitted to fly at night/fatigued/on too long a journey/without a copilot/with inadequate safety systems etc? The same questions could be asked of a driver falling asleep on the roads. The balance here is ideological, really, and changes over time. We still very much lean on humans and human training on the roads, whereas getting humans to do the right thing all the time is kind of a last resort in most safety critical industries.

I suspect the reason we've not had a roads accident investigation branch for so long is that it might start recommending strict safety measures of the kind of the kind that have been totally normal in the rest of the transport sector for years - continuous testing/training, failsafes, speed limiters, increased automation and monitoring etc - which would reduce accidents but also be very politically sensitive.
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 19:59 I'd also make it crystal clear that contributory negligence cuts both ways. Badly designed and badly maintained roads would soon get fixed.
100% agreed. If a Coroner concludes that an Aircraft Engineer was negligent, they go to prison and never work in the industry again (unless they work for Boeing). If a Coroner concludes that a contributory factor to a death on the road was extremely poor highway/traffic engineering...?

There are plenty of good engineers and planners out there, but the bad ones only speak consequences and there are none. That's why more and more of our roads are becoming a joke. I've been banging on about this for years but mainly been scoped in on HE/NH RCCs and the liability that has been added on smart motorways for deaths caused by motorway operator error.
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

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DB617 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:33 100% agreed. If a Coroner concludes that an Aircraft Engineer was negligent, they go to prison and never work in the industry again (unless they work for Boeing). If a Coroner concludes that a contributory factor to a death on the road was extremely poor highway/traffic engineering...?

There are plenty of good engineers and planners out there, but the bad ones only speak consequences and there are none. That's why more and more of our roads are becoming a joke. I've been banging on about this for years but mainly been scoped in on HE/NH RCCs and the liability that has been added on smart motorways for deaths caused by motorway operator error.
Actually that very rarely happens for the simple reason that if that model was followed those involved with such investigations would simply lawyer up and give no comment replies to every question. The whole point of an AAIB investigation is to find out what happened and to make sure the system is changed to make sure it never happens again not punish people.

In any case it is not the duty of a coroner to assign guilt to an individual, a typical murder finding will simply specify a person or persons unknown. Feel free to tell us when the last aircraft or rail engineer was sent to prison for negligence.
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

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KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:28
DB617 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:33 100% agreed. If a Coroner concludes that an Aircraft Engineer was negligent, they go to prison and never work in the industry again (unless they work for Boeing). If a Coroner concludes that a contributory factor to a death on the road was extremely poor highway/traffic engineering...?

There are plenty of good engineers and planners out there, but the bad ones only speak consequences and there are none. That's why more and more of our roads are becoming a joke. I've been banging on about this for years but mainly been scoped in on HE/NH RCCs and the liability that has been added on smart motorways for deaths caused by motorway operator error.
Actually that very rarely happens for the simple reason that if that model was followed those involved with such investigations would simply lawyer up and give no comment replies to every question. The whole point of an AAIB investigation is to find out what happened and to make sure the system is changed to make sure it never happens again not punish people.

In any case it is not the duty of a coroner to assign guilt to an individual, a typical murder finding will simply specify a person or persons unknown. Feel free to tell us when the last aircraft or rail engineer was sent to prison for negligence.
To be honest, I'm just going off what I was taught when I was studying aircraft engineering, but perhaps it was a scare story. We certainly also learnt about no guilt investigations and such. At the very least perhaps this RCIB can perform the same investigations for road accidents and we can begin to introduce a safety culture similar to that in the aviation world, where the safety of road users (and not just motorised ones) is viewed by everyone in the industry as their moral and professional duty, instead of the sort of jokers we have running things at present.
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

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DB617 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 14:02 To be honest, I'm just going off what I was taught when I was studying aircraft engineering, but perhaps it was a scare story. We certainly also learnt about no guilt investigations and such. At the very least perhaps this RCIB can perform the same investigations for road accidents and we can begin to introduce a safety culture similar to that in the aviation world, where the safety of road users (and not just motorised ones) is viewed by everyone in the industry as their moral and professional duty, instead of the sort of jokers we have running things at present.
This is why I support the idea, very few people deliberately put peoples life at risk but everyone is fallible which is why most work on critical system is subject to inspection and why modern railways have automated systems to apply the brakes if a driver passes a red signal or exceeds the max speed for that section. With aviation and rail the question is not who can we blame but what went wrong with the system ?
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Re: Road Collision Investigation Branch

Post by Bryn666 »

KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 14:38
DB617 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 14:02 To be honest, I'm just going off what I was taught when I was studying aircraft engineering, but perhaps it was a scare story. We certainly also learnt about no guilt investigations and such. At the very least perhaps this RCIB can perform the same investigations for road accidents and we can begin to introduce a safety culture similar to that in the aviation world, where the safety of road users (and not just motorised ones) is viewed by everyone in the industry as their moral and professional duty, instead of the sort of jokers we have running things at present.
This is why I support the idea, very few people deliberately put peoples life at risk but everyone is fallible which is why most work on critical system is subject to inspection and why modern railways have automated systems to apply the brakes if a driver passes a red signal or exceeds the max speed for that section. With aviation and rail the question is not who can we blame but what went wrong with the system ?
This is why I get very bored very quickly with cycle campaigners that simply want presumptive liability because they hate drivers. That is NOT how road safety engineering works, you do not start with a fit-up and work back from that, you determine causation and develop a fix.
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