Newest abandoned roads?

[KeithW]

Thank you for the heads-up re the book - might be worth buying?

I would suggest essential is a better description.

[Vierwielen]

Although not strictly abandoned, the old Forth Road Bridge immediately came to my mind. It only closed in 2017. The carriageway that used to link it to Scotstoun is also still there and appears to be maintained, most likely in case it is needed in an emergency.

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9799694 ... 92!5m1!1e1

It may be used used by public transport, light motorcycles and bicycles.
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9841475 ... 92!5m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9787344 ... 00!5m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9782417 ... 92!5m1!1e1

Does 'up to 125cc' include electric motorcycles I wonder?

The Government has a problem here. Electric bikes can only be restricted by their power rating (or maximum design speed). The former is on their registration forms, but not the latter. Then again, petrol-powered motorbikes also have their power recorded on their registration forms, so it woudl make sense to change the restriction to one which is power-based. But under current legislation, the legal unit for power is kW, not HP. That won't go down with certain sectors of teh motoring community.

[KeithW]

The Government has a problem here. Electric bikes can only be restricted by their power rating (or maximum design speed). The former is on their registration forms, but not the latter. Then again, petrol-powered motorbikes also have their power recorded on their registration forms, so it woudl make sense to change the restriction to one which is power-based. But under current legislation, the legal unit for power is kW, not HP. That won't go down with certain sectors of teh motoring community.

Rating by power has already been done. Horsepower was replaced by kW a very long time ago except in advertising if for no other reason than there are so many variations.

1 Mechanical horsepower = 33,000 ft·lbf/min
1 Metric horsepower (PS) = 75 kgf⋅m/s
1 Electric horsepower = 746 W

Anyway the regulations regarding electric cycles, mopeds and motor cycles are here
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements

Light motorcycles are defined thus:
Light motorcycle up to 11 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio not more than 0.1 kW per kg) and 125 cc

[Ruperts Trooper]

The Government has a problem here. Electric bikes can only be restricted by their power rating (or maximum design speed). The former is on their registration forms, but not the latter. Then again, petrol-powered motorbikes also have their power recorded on their registration forms, so it woudl make sense to change the restriction to one which is power-based. But under current legislation, the legal unit for power is kW, not HP. That won't go down with certain sectors of teh motoring community.

Rating by power has already been done. Horsepower was replaced by kW a very long time ago except in advertising if for no other reason than there are so many variations.

1 Mechanical horsepower = 33,000 ft·lbf/min
1 Metric horsepower (PS) = 75 kgf⋅m/s
1 Electric horsepower = 746 W

Anyway the regulations regarding electric cycles, mopeds and motor cycles are here
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements

Light motorcycles are defined thus:
Light motorcycle up to 11 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio not more than 0.1 kW per kg) and 125 cc

The motor industry uses PS as a de facto standard but it's not the same as HP or BHP - it's a German DIN standard which should, strictly, only be used for German domestic customers - it's another thing that grinds my gears!

[Vierwielen]

The Government has a problem here. Electric bikes can only be restricted by their power rating (or maximum design speed). The former is on their registration forms, but not the latter. Then again, petrol-powered motorbikes also have their power recorded on their registration forms, so it woudl make sense to change the restriction to one which is power-based. But under current legislation, the legal unit for power is kW, not HP. That won't go down with certain sectors of teh motoring community.

Rating by power has already been done. Horsepower was replaced by kW a very long time ago except in advertising if for no other reason than there are so many variations.

1 Mechanical horsepower = 33,000 ft·lbf/min
1 Metric horsepower (PS) = 75 kgf⋅m/s
1 Electric horsepower = 746 W

Anyway the regulations regarding electric cycles, mopeds and motor cycles are here
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements

Light motorcycles are defined thus:
Light motorcycle up to 11 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio not more than 0.1 kW per kg) and 125 cc

If I were to code this using a standard computer language, the computer would think it mandatory for a light motorcycle to have an engine of exactly 125 cc. The compiler would also ignore the brackets in the expression as being redundant. Now had they employed a computer programmer to write that specification, then they would have written “Light motorcycle up to11kW with a power to weight ratio of no more than 0.1 kW/kg and for petrol powered vehicles an engine capacity of no more than 125 cc.”

BTW, I need to check what happens when evaluating X AND Y where Y is undefined.

[solocle]

Motorway regulations require an engine capacity of at least 50cc.

Does this mean that no electric vehicle is allowed on a motorway!?

Equally, if that requirement is obivated, then an electric motorcycle only capable of 28 mph is still allowed by the letter of the regulations?

I don't think this has actually ever been addressed in legislation, although I'd happily be proved wrong on that.

[trickstat]

Motorway regulations require an engine capacity of at least 50cc.

Does this mean that no electric vehicle is allowed on a motorway!?

Equally, if that requirement is obivated, then an electric motorcycle only capable of 28 mph is still allowed by the letter of the regulations?

I don't think this has actually ever been addressed in legislation, although I'd happily be proved wrong on that.

As far as I can see the 50cc capacity rule only applies to motorcycles:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 253-to-273

Maybe a 49cc car would be prohibited as being in a category of slow-moving vehicle. Similarly to the Invacars from the 60s and 70s (I think "invalid carriages" were listed as prohibited on motorway signs when I was young). It doesn't appear that there is an issue with electric cars as long as they can go at an appropriate speed (50? 60?).

[solocle]

Motorway regulations require an engine capacity of at least 50cc.

Does this mean that no electric vehicle is allowed on a motorway!?

Equally, if that requirement is obivated, then an electric motorcycle only capable of 28 mph is still allowed by the letter of the regulations?

I don't think this has actually ever been addressed in legislation, although I'd happily be proved wrong on that.

As far as I can see the 50cc capacity rule only applies to motorcycles:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 253-to-273

Maybe a 49cc car would be prohibited as being in a category of slow-moving vehicle. Similarly to the Invacars from the 60s and 70s (I think "invalid carriages" were listed as prohibited on motorway signs when I was young). It doesn't appear that there is an issue with electric cars as long as they can go at an appropriate speed (50? 60?).

HA 1980 schedule 4.
Heavy and light locomotives, motor tractors, heavy motor cars, motor cars and motor cycles whereof the cylinder capacity of the engine is not less than 50 cubic centimetres, and trailers drawn thereby,..

I'd interpret that as including the motor cars in the 50cc requirement. Even so, it doesn't get round electric motorcycles of widely varying capabilities.

Some of the veteran cars I was riding with would be allowed on a motorway, with engine capacities measured in litres, and top speeds of over 25 mph. Even though I was keeping up with them on a pedal bike.

Incidentally that's the A23 just after the M23 exit, where the poor soul involved in the fatal crash a few years back went wrong.

[Nwallace]

The Government has a problem here. Electric bikes can only be restricted by their power rating (or maximum design speed). The former is on their registration forms, but not the latter. Then again, petrol-powered motorbikes also have their power recorded on their registration forms, so it woudl make sense to change the restriction to one which is power-based. But under current legislation, the legal unit for power is kW, not HP. That won't go down with certain sectors of teh motoring community.

Rating by power has already been done. Horsepower was replaced by kW a very long time ago except in advertising if for no other reason than there are so many variations.

1 Mechanical horsepower = 33,000 ft·lbf/min
1 Metric horsepower (PS) = 75 kgf⋅m/s
1 Electric horsepower = 746 W

Anyway the regulations regarding electric cycles, mopeds and motor cycles are here
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements

Light motorcycles are defined thus:
Light motorcycle up to 11 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio not more than 0.1 kW per kg) and 125 cc

If I were to code this using a standard computer language, the computer would think it mandatory for a light motorcycle to have an engine of exactly 125 cc. The compiler would also ignore the brackets in the expression as being redundant. Now had they employed a computer programmer to write that specification, then they would have written “Light motorcycle up to11kW with a power to weight ratio of no more than 0.1 kW/kg and for petrol powered vehicles an engine capacity of no more than 125 cc.”

BTW, I need to check what happens when evaluating X AND Y where Y is undefined.

Null pointer exception?

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Vierwielen]

The full list of allowable vehicle types can be found here. Although this is an EU-specified list, the EU probably aligned its list with the the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (which does not include lawn mowers etc which appeared on my original licence).

The logical route would be to get the Vienna Convention updated so that either "125 cc" only applies to vehicles powered by internal combustion engines or the 125 cc part of the defintion is removed completely from the regulation, leaving only the power and power-to-weight ratios as the defining factors. Once this is done, the 125 cc restriction can be replaced with a pictorial of a motorbike with the letters "A1" next to it. Of course, if Boris wants the UK to make up its own rules without reference to the outside world (which is what he effectively promised in his BREXIT campaign), the rules will get very complicated when it comes to overseas drivers not understanding the signs.

One small point about the power to weight - does it apply to the vehicle or the vehicle plus driver? If the latter, I can see a situation of Boris going where Rishi cannot follow.

[KeithW]

Motorway regulations require an engine capacity of at least 50cc.

Does this mean that no electric vehicle is allowed on a motorway!?

Equally, if that requirement is obivated, then an electric motorcycle only capable of 28 mph is still allowed by the letter of the regulations?

I don't think this has actually ever been addressed in legislation, although I'd happily be proved wrong on that.

It means that what was posted was a short precis on the performance limits of electric bikes, light electric motorcycles and electric mopeds. If you wish to know what traffic is allowed on motorways you need to consult the appropriate legal definitions.

[KeithW]

As far as I can see the 50cc capacity rule only applies to motorcycles:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 253-to-273

Maybe a 49cc car would be prohibited as being in a category of slow-moving vehicle. Similarly to the Invacars from the 60s and 70s (I think "invalid carriages" were listed as prohibited on motorway signs when I was young). It doesn't appear that there is an issue with electric cars as long as they can go at an appropriate speed (50? 60?).

The Invacar was typically powered by a 500 cc or 600 cc Steyr-Puch engine and with a light plastic body was insanely fast, at least one was clocked at around 80 mph. They were classed as invalid carriages and were legally banned from motorways if for no other reason that driving one didnt require a driving test or license. When one was supplied training involved a quick instruction and being cut loose. When they were withdrawn the class was withdrawn. A few survived and are now classed as a tricycle and if properly taxed, tested and driven by a licensed driver are legal if unsafe at any speed on a motorway.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... xceptional

[Alderpoint]

Good detective work - although looking at OpenStreetMap, while the road to the slip road might reuse sections of the old road, it actually connects the stadium car park.

This aerial pic shows the amount of the old road which is still used and the middle section which is all grassed over.

[SteelCamel]

Good detective work - although looking at OpenStreetMap, while the road to the slip road might reuse sections of the old road, it actually connects the stadium car park.

This aerial pic shows the amount of the old road which is still used and the middle section which is all grassed over.

Excellent. So my detective work was a bit out - the top gate accesses a patch of grass, not a road. And in fact there's no "abandoned" road at all, everything is either still in use or grassed over.

I wonder what the gate from the stadium is for? It was there when the road was in use, but was an entrance from the A9 exit slip - it's now an exit to the A9 entry slip, so the direction has been reversed. To be honest it doesn't look very safe - an unsignalled T junction half-way down a slip road, where the traffic is going to be accelerating to join the A9. And the main gate leads to the top of the same slip road, so it seems rather unnecessary.

[Isleworth1961]

As far as I can see the 50cc capacity rule only applies to motorcycles:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 253-to-273

Maybe a 49cc car would be prohibited as being in a category of slow-moving vehicle. Similarly to the Invacars from the 60s and 70s (I think "invalid carriages" were listed as prohibited on motorway signs when I was young). It doesn't appear that there is an issue with electric cars as long as they can go at an appropriate speed (50? 60?).

The Invacar was typically powered by a 500 cc or 600 cc Steyr-Puch engine and with a light plastic body was insanely fast, at least one was clocked at around 80 mph. They were classed as invalid carriages and were legally banned from motorways if for no other reason that driving one didnt require a driving test or license. When one was supplied training involved a quick instruction and being cut loose. When they were withdrawn the class was withdrawn. A few survived and are now classed as a tricycle and if properly taxed, tested and driven by a licensed driver are legal if unsafe at any speed on a motorway.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... xceptional

That article is rather out of date now - Ian has done very many miles now. His adventures with 'TWC' (and other cars in his fleet including Elly the 2CV) are amusingly entertaining.

[Rambo]

This exit slip remains complete with ADS which used to run southbound off the Runcorn - Widnes bridge (Silver Jubilee). Now looking in the maps section this spiral expressway bit (which has just been demolished last year) must date from the 1970's as the original bridge approach is virtually the same as it is today after remodelling.

[skiddaw05]

This useful and decidedly sensible slip road was part of the A47 Norwich southern bypass, which opened in the early '90s, and took you nicely onto the old A47 (A1042) back into the eastern end of the city and suburbs

Then along came the Postwick hub in the mid-2010's which ruined everything, and it is now pretty well obliterated. You now have two bridges, an additional roundabout and a set of traffic lights to negotiate to do the same thing

[jnty]

Good detective work - although looking at OpenStreetMap, while the road to the slip road might reuse sections of the old road, it actually connects the stadium car park.

This aerial pic shows the amount of the old road which is still used and the middle section which is all grassed over.

Excellent. So my detective work was a bit out - the top gate accesses a patch of grass, not a road. And in fact there's no "abandoned" road at all, everything is either still in use or grassed over.

I wonder what the gate from the stadium is for? It was there when the road was in use, but was an entrance from the A9 exit slip - it's now an exit to the A9 entry slip, so the direction has been reversed. To be honest it doesn't look very safe - an unsignalled T junction half-way down a slip road, where the traffic is going to be accelerating to join the A9. And the main gate leads to the top of the same slip road, so it seems rather unnecessary.

Brilliant aerial pic - explains everything! And yes indeed, looks like none of the remaining road is actually abandoned! It's not been too long so we can maybe infer that the road was actively obliterated.

My assumption with the gated junction would be that it's only used on event days to get folk out quickly and is managed by traffic wardens. Failing that I suppose it could be some kind of emergency access, perhaps only intended for major incidents.

[R Iason]

Few ones in Scotland spring to mind.

A6091 - Melrose to Newton St Boswells section closed off and re routed (not sure when). Old section still largely intact when I walked it couple years ago.

A93 - Craighall Gorge north of Blairgowrie (bypassed in 2008).

A8 - Coatbridge Bypass. Not physically abandoned as such but with the newest section of the M8 completed a few years ago the A8 still being dual carriageway does seem somewhat redundant.

[Unbreakify]

This exit slip remains complete with ADS which used to run southbound off the Runcorn - Widnes bridge (Silver Jubilee). Now looking in the maps section this spiral expressway bit (which has just been demolished last year) must date from the 1970's as the original bridge approach is virtually the same as it is today after remodelling.

Woooaah. Go back a bit. What happened to the dual carrigeway? Its gone!