Zonal extremities

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
LoopyUpholland
Banned
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 17:11

Zonal extremities

Post by LoopyUpholland »

Looking at the map of zones has made me wonder something: which road is the furthest from its zonal 'parent', while being totally in its own zone without leaving? Roads such as the A14 or A38 wouldn't count here.

I'm guessing that there's some A3x roads that are a long, long way from the A3, so perhaps something in Cornwall?
User avatar
FosseWay
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 19621
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by FosseWay »

LoopyUpholland wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:20 Looking at the map of zones has made me wonder something: which road is the furthest from its zonal 'parent', while being totally in its own zone without leaving? Roads such as the A14 or A38 wouldn't count here.

I'm guessing that there's some A3x roads that are a long, long way from the A3, so perhaps something in Cornwall?
There is no contest regarding zone 3 - it's the A3111 on St Mary's in the Isles of Scilly. What I'm less certain of is whether somewhere in the far north of zone 8 is further from anywhere on the A8.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
A72
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 17:21
Location: Newtown St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by A72 »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:30What I'm less certain of is whether somewhere in the far north of zone 8 is further from anywhere on the A8.
Not by a long-shot.

The distance from where the A3 meets the A27, to the furthest point of the A3111, is 242.3 miles.

The distance from the A8 at Greenock, to where the B874 meets the A9 in Thurso, is 188.6 miles

Even the distance from the A8 on West Maitland Street in Edinburgh, to Eorapaidh (Isle of Lewis), on the B8013, is only 210.2 miles.

In comparison, the distance from the A3111, to the A3 at Elephant & Castle, is 293 miles.
The 7-Zone Challenge
A roads: 71/71
B roads: 181/181
Total: 252/252

Completed: 04/11/20.
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9859
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by owen b »

A72 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 13:04
FosseWay wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:30What I'm less certain of is whether somewhere in the far north of zone 8 is further from anywhere on the A8.
Not by a long-shot.

The distance from where the A3 meets the A27, to the furthest point of the A3111, is 242.3 miles.

The distance from the A8 at Greenock, to where the B874 meets the A9 in Thurso, is 188.6 miles

Even the distance from the A8 on West Maitland Street in Edinburgh, to Eorapaidh (Isle of Lewis), on the B8013, is only 210.2 miles.

In comparison, the distance from the A3111, to the A3 at Elephant & Castle, is 293 miles.
It's a long way from Thurso at the end of the A9 to the northernmost part of the A968 in the Shetlands. I'm not saying it's further than Portsmouth to the Scillies, but it's a long way. The B9087 adds a bit more.
Owen
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by jnty »

owen b wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 14:10
A72 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 13:04
FosseWay wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:30What I'm less certain of is whether somewhere in the far north of zone 8 is further from anywhere on the A8.
Not by a long-shot.

The distance from where the A3 meets the A27, to the furthest point of the A3111, is 242.3 miles.

The distance from the A8 at Greenock, to where the B874 meets the A9 in Thurso, is 188.6 miles

Even the distance from the A8 on West Maitland Street in Edinburgh, to Eorapaidh (Isle of Lewis), on the B8013, is only 210.2 miles.

In comparison, the distance from the A3111, to the A3 at Elephant & Castle, is 293 miles.
It's a long way from Thurso at the end of the A9 to the northernmost part of the A968 in the Shetlands. I'm not saying it's further than Portsmouth to the Scillies, but it's a long way. The B9087 adds a bit more.
Zone 9 perhaps suffers a bit here due to the curtailment of the southern section of the A9 so maybe it's fair to consider some other "parent" roads? Some numbers:

Top of A968 to...

End of A9: 178mi
Start of A9: 347mi
Start of M9: 349mi
Start of A90: 357mi

So zone 9 actually wins outright if you consider the start of the parent road. (There might actually be a more south-westerly point of the A9 that does even better.)

This is actually quite an interesting thing to think about for getting the "feel" of how large certain parts of the UK are relative to each other.
User avatar
A72
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 17:21
Location: Newtown St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by A72 »

jnty wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 15:03There might actually be a more south-westerly point of the A9 that does even better.
Measuring from the A9, at Camelon, takes it to 349 miles.
The 7-Zone Challenge
A roads: 71/71
B roads: 181/181
Total: 252/252

Completed: 04/11/20.
SteelCamel
Member
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 15:46

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by SteelCamel »

owen b wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 14:10 It's a long way from Thurso at the end of the A9 to the northernmost part of the A968 in the Shetlands. I'm not saying it's further than Portsmouth to the Scillies, but it's a long way. The B9087 adds a bit more.
The 9-zone can win - but only if we go back to 1935, when the A9 ended in Inverness. The B9087 existed then, though shorter than now. It's 258 miles as the crow flies from Haroldswick to Inverness, marginally beating the 242 miles from Portsmouth to St Marys.

The 3-zone is unusual in that neither of its boundary roads are very long, while the zone itself is. Somerset, Dorset, Devon, and Cornwall have the zone boundaries as the sea, not a road - on both sides.
User avatar
Mapper89062
Member
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2021 21:25
Location: on your map

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by Mapper89062 »

Most of these zonal extremities at least make some sense, as they form (or previously did at least) parts of long-distance routes. There are a few that really look strange, though, for instance:
  • I can understand why the A414 goes as far east as Chelmsford since pre-M25 it would have been a useful route across the north of London, but why take it all the way to Maldon?
  • The A614 goes an unusually long way into the 1 zone for a not particularly important route, as does the A272 into the 3 zone (though for the latter, the western end of the route did fit better with the rest of it at the time of classification.)
  • We all know about the A361 of course.
  • After having been the main south coastal route for the entire route from Pevensey to Southampton, the A27 suddenly swings around the north side of Southampton, then runs away from the coast to Romsey.
  • The A52 running up the Lincolnshire coast is virtually a completely different route from the rest of it, and would look especially odd had the rerouting up the A523 to Manchester gone ahead, resulting in the route being a long U shape!
Just your average mapper, bringing you a map-focused take on today's world
User avatar
Bfivethousand
Member
Posts: 1387
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 22:16
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by Bfivethousand »

jnty wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 15:03
owen b wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 14:10
A72 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 13:04

Not by a long-shot.

The distance from where the A3 meets the A27, to the furthest point of the A3111, is 242.3 miles.

The distance from the A8 at Greenock, to where the B874 meets the A9 in Thurso, is 188.6 miles

Even the distance from the A8 on West Maitland Street in Edinburgh, to Eorapaidh (Isle of Lewis), on the B8013, is only 210.2 miles.

In comparison, the distance from the A3111, to the A3 at Elephant & Castle, is 293 miles.
It's a long way from Thurso at the end of the A9 to the northernmost part of the A968 in the Shetlands. I'm not saying it's further than Portsmouth to the Scillies, but it's a long way. The B9087 adds a bit more.
Zone 9 perhaps suffers a bit here due to the curtailment of the southern section of the A9 so maybe it's fair to consider some other "parent" roads? Some numbers:

Top of A968 to...

End of A9: 178mi
Start of A9: 347mi
Start of M9: 349mi
Start of A90: 357mi

So zone 9 actually wins outright if you consider the start of the parent road. (There might actually be a more south-westerly point of the A9 that does even better.)

This is actually quite an interesting thing to think about for getting the "feel" of how large certain parts of the UK are relative to each other.
A199 Leith to A1 Barbican is 396 miles via the A1 / A1(M), 333 miles as the crow flies
16 Sodium atoms walk into a bar
followed immediately by Batman
User avatar
Gareth Thomas
Member
Posts: 1718
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 13:43
Location: Temple Ewell, Kent
Contact:

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by Gareth Thomas »

Bfivethousand wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 20:22 A199 Leith to A1 Barbican is 396 miles via the A1 / A1(M), 333 miles as the crow flies
But it isn’t that far from Leith to the OTHER end of the A1 at Edinburgh city centre. 😄
My journey with testicular cancer!
https://garethishalfnuts.wordpress.com/

"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads..."
-Dr Emmett Brown
User avatar
ravenbluemoon
Committee Member
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:32
Location: Between Mansfield and Göteborg

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Mapper89062 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 18:13 [*]The A614 goes an unusually long way into the 1 zone for a not particularly important route, as does the A272 into the 3 zone (though for the latter, the western end of the route did fit better with the rest of it at the time of classification.)
The A614 is a bit of an odd one for a long distance route, connecting up with not very much. It was actually much shorter until the 1990s, terminating at Howden. It has since eaten up part of the A163 and A166 to get to Bridlington.
Tony Alice (they,them)
~~~~~
Owner of a classic rust heap/money pit, and other unremarkable older vehicles.
Usually found with a head in an old map or road atlas.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Ask me if you want to get involved!

User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2437
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by jgharston »

ravenbluemoon wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 17:39
Mapper89062 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 18:13 [*]The A614 goes an unusually long way into the 1 zone for a not particularly important route, as does the A272 into the 3 zone (though for the latter, the western end of the route did fit better with the rest of it at the time of classification.)
The A614 is a bit of an odd one for a long distance route, connecting up with not very much. It was actually much shorter until the 1990s, terminating at Howden. It has since eaten up part of the A163 and A166 to get to Bridlington.
And should really be numbered A164 (posts passim).
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by Owain »

Mapper89062 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 18:13 Most of these zonal extremities at least make some sense, as they form (or previously did at least) parts of long-distance routes. There are a few that really look strange, though, for instance:
  • I can understand why the A414 goes as far east as Chelmsford since pre-M25 it would have been a useful route across the north of London, but why take it all the way to Maldon?
  • The A614 goes an unusually long way into the 1 zone for a not particularly important route, as does the A272 into the 3 zone (though for the latter, the western end of the route did fit better with the rest of it at the time of classification.)
  • We all know about the A361 of course.
  • After having been the main south coastal route for the entire route from Pevensey to Southampton, the A27 suddenly swings around the north side of Southampton, then runs away from the coast to Romsey.
  • The A52 running up the Lincolnshire coast is virtually a completely different route from the rest of it, and would look especially odd had the rerouting up the A523 to Manchester gone ahead, resulting in the route being a long U shape!
Fans of this type of road will fondly remember the mighty A604. :reaper: RIP
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19202
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by KeithW »

Owain wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:09 Fans of this type of road will fondly remember the mighty A604. :reaper: RIP
I mourned it every time I drove over the Huntingdon Viaduct as I was one of the first to drive it from the M11 to Alconbury in early 1980.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... title=A604

From the SABRE Wiki: A604 :


The A604 was an important major cross country route across East Anglia from the 1930s to the 1990s. At one point it was one of the main roads for traffic heading from the Midlands to the ports at Harwich and Felixstowe.

Most of the A604 was created in the 1935 Road numbering revision which joined several local cross-country routes, including the original A604, to form a long-distance road that could act as an alternative to the A45. The A14 was created partly out of

... Read More
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by Owain »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:27
Owain wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:09 Fans of this type of road will fondly remember the mighty A604. :reaper: RIP
I mourned it every time I drove over the Huntingdon Viaduct as I was one of the first to drive it from the M11 to Alconbury in early 1980.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... title=A604
Alas, I never got to drive on it, the A14 killing it off a few years before I passed my test!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!

From the SABRE Wiki: A604 :


The A604 was an important major cross country route across East Anglia from the 1930s to the 1990s. At one point it was one of the main roads for traffic heading from the Midlands to the ports at Harwich and Felixstowe.

Most of the A604 was created in the 1935 Road numbering revision which joined several local cross-country routes, including the original A604, to form a long-distance road that could act as an alternative to the A45. The A14 was created partly out of

... Read More
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19202
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by KeithW »

Owain wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 13:08 Alas, I never got to drive on it, the A14 killing it off a few years before I passed my test!
I actually first drove part of it in 1973 on my way back from an interview in Cambridge, up the A604 to Godmanchester , over the town bridge to Huntingdon and up what was then the A14 (Ermine Street) through the Stukeleys to the A1 at Alconbury. This was one of my earliest long range drives in my trusty Hillman Imp (EMX 724J). At that time of course it was S2 with lots of flat junctions
User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11081
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by ForestChav »

jgharston wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 04:53
ravenbluemoon wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 17:39
Mapper89062 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 18:13 [*]The A614 goes an unusually long way into the 1 zone for a not particularly important route, as does the A272 into the 3 zone (though for the latter, the western end of the route did fit better with the rest of it at the time of classification.)
The A614 is a bit of an odd one for a long distance route, connecting up with not very much. It was actually much shorter until the 1990s, terminating at Howden. It has since eaten up part of the A163 and A166 to get to Bridlington.
And should really be numbered A164 (posts passim).
Aside from the bit where the A1 gobbled up part of it (between Blyth and Clumber Park) to bypass Doncaster and Retford, it's a continuous route starting in zone 6.

Though the section between Nottingham and the A1 is clearly important and busy (if not particularly fast due to Sherwood Forest traffic, SPECS, low speed limits etc) it doesn't feel as though it's part of a particular route to get from Nottingham to Bridlington, maybe because the part alongside the M18 is presumably more a local route, and not necessarily worth having a 3 digit number, making the section from the A614 to Bridlington (which as has been said is an extension of the original number anyway) a 2nd route of actual importance. It'd be a faff to renumber everything which is probably why it hasn't but the bit from Blyth to Howden could even be a B road and then you'd be able to give the Yorkshire section an A1xx number, in Notts in an ideal world I'd probably swap the A60 and A614 numbers north of Redhill as that matches more their relative importance.

Of course, the A52 (also mentioned) was also heavily extended at the Eastern end, originally ending on the A1 at Grantham, the rest was A152 then A154 or something up the coast. It isn't really the obvious route to Mablethorpe or Skeg either, though the roads in that part of Lincs aren't exactly amazing to begin with. It just seemed they wanted to put a 2 digit number to the coast like a fair amount of the others do.
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Zonal extremities

Post by Owain »

ForestChav wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 14:16 Aside from the bit where the A1 gobbled up part of it (between Blyth and Clumber Park) to bypass Doncaster and Retford, it's a continuous route starting in zone 6.

Though the section between Nottingham and the A1 is clearly important and busy (if not particularly fast due to Sherwood Forest traffic, SPECS, low speed limits etc) it doesn't feel as though it's part of a particular route to get from Nottingham to Bridlington, maybe because the part alongside the M18 is presumably more a local route, and not necessarily worth having a 3 digit number, making the section from the A614 to Bridlington (which as has been said is an extension of the original number anyway) a 2nd route of actual importance. It'd be a faff to renumber everything which is probably why it hasn't but the bit from Blyth to Howden could even be a B road and then you'd be able to give the Yorkshire section an A1xx number, in Notts in an ideal world I'd probably swap the A60 and A614 numbers north of Redhill as that matches more their relative importance.

Of course, the A52 (also mentioned) was also heavily extended at the Eastern end, originally ending on the A1 at Grantham, the rest was A152 then A154 or something up the coast. It isn't really the obvious route to Mablethorpe or Skeg either, though the roads in that part of Lincs aren't exactly amazing to begin with. It just seemed they wanted to put a 2 digit number to the coast like a fair amount of the others do.
Considering that the A60 number seems rather 'wasted' on its present route, I think it would make some sense to swap it with the A614 in Nottinghamshire as you suggest, but also to swap the whole route to Bridlington.

Bridlington is quite a significant destination - surely as much as Skegness and more so than Mablethorpe - and the road to that point from Goole is pretty good. It's green-signed too.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Post Reply