"Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

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jervi
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"Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by jervi »

National Highways' Press Release for today says that they will be trialling an automated system to replace cone tapers. This will be done at the A3 Hindhead Tunnel.

The system involves gates & signs to revolve from the edge of the carriageway into the lane at its closure points creating a taper. After the last "gate" cones can be put out in the traditional way, or using a new "automated cone laying machine" which has already been successfully trialled.

The "swift gates" can be deployed in under 1 minute, instead of the typical 25 minutes it current would take.

Both of these automated systems are part of the "National Highways’ Digital Roads 2025 vision", so I'd suspect these swift gates would be installed on new digital/smart motorways once new ones start getting built again, or maybe retrofitted to some existing ones too. - Love to see how it could do a two or even three lane taper too!

Video showing how they may operate

From the SABRE Wiki: Hindhead Tunnel :


The Hindhead Tunnel is a road tunnel in Surrey that allows the A3 to bypass the town of Hindhead. Construction started in early 2007, and it opened to traffic in July 2011. Upon its opening, the A3 became continuous dual carriageway between Wimbledon and the A27, meaning that the A3 outside of TfL-controlled areas is now entirely dual carriagway.

A plan to bypass and improve the A3 around the Hindhead area had been proposed for some time. During the early 1970s, a route

... Read More
WHBM
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by WHBM »

I see they have the new National Highways standard of being mounted in a whacking great, sharp-edged concrete block right behind the Armco. Bearing in mind the number of times you see the results of an Armco strike, with it extended and pushed back (as it is meant to do), containing the vehicle, putting a very non-frangible obstruction right in its path just seems inappropriate. Especially in the central reservation.

I wonder what Risk Assessment was bent or ignored to allow this practice. Does nobody at National Highways understand how Armco works ?
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by RichardA35 »

WHBM wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 17:05 I see they have the new National Highways standard of being mounted in a whacking great, sharp-edged concrete block right behind the Armco. Bearing in mind the number of times you see the results of an Armco strike, with it extended and pushed back (as it is meant to do), containing the vehicle, putting a very non-frangible obstruction right in its path just seems inappropriate. Especially in the central reservation.

I wonder what Risk Assessment was bent or ignored to allow this practice. Does nobody at National Highways understand how Armco works ?
It looks like a modern proprietary safety barrier system (Hindhead is only about 10 years old) as TCB "armco" is now depracated. The "new" barriers have a narrower working width and any designer worth his money would avoid placing anything within the working width that was not passively safe.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by DavidBrown »

Not sure I like the way these seem to be mounted at drivers' head height. I wonder what would give way first in a collision, the Swift Gate or a car windscreen. And as for motorcyclists, I dread to think.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Bryn666 »

jervi wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 16:51 National Highways' Press Release for today says that they will be trialling an automated system to replace cone tapers. This will be done at the A3 Hindhead Tunnel.

The system involves gates & signs to revolve from the edge of the carriageway into the lane at its closure points creating a taper. After the last "gate" cones can be put out in the traditional way, or using a new "automated cone laying machine" which has already been successfully trialled.

The "swift gates" can be deployed in under 1 minute, instead of the typical 25 minutes it current would take.

Both of these automated systems are part of the "National Highways’ Digital Roads 2025 vision", so I'd suspect these swift gates would be installed on new digital/smart motorways once new ones start getting built again, or maybe retrofitted to some existing ones too. - Love to see how it could do a two or even three lane taper too!

Video showing how they may operate
France already did it.

https://goo.gl/maps/JNyWZqhBsBLgeYsMA
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From the SABRE Wiki: Hindhead Tunnel :


The Hindhead Tunnel is a road tunnel in Surrey that allows the A3 to bypass the town of Hindhead. Construction started in early 2007, and it opened to traffic in July 2011. Upon its opening, the A3 became continuous dual carriageway between Wimbledon and the A27, meaning that the A3 outside of TfL-controlled areas is now entirely dual carriagway.

A plan to bypass and improve the A3 around the Hindhead area had been proposed for some time. During the early 1970s, a route

... Read More
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Keiji »

How failsafe are these? Is there any chance - any nonzero chance at all - that one could suddenly swing out into the path of a vehicle when no warnings were displayed? My gut says the answer will be yes meaning it's only a matter of time til one of these kills someone.

At least the current procedure of driving a big lorry (or even better an IPV) down the lane and dropping cones from it means there's a big, obvious human-driven vehicle in front of you that you can't miss.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Helvellyn »

Red flags raised here - "digital", "smart" - all signs that usually seem to mean "well duh it's more high tech so of course it's better innit? Got to make stuff digital because!"
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Bryn666 »

Helvellyn wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 20:46 Red flags raised here - "digital", "smart" - all signs that usually seem to mean "well duh it's more high tech so of course it's better innit? Got to make stuff digital because!"
If they're as successful as the roller shutter lane closure signs on the M6 around Preston which I've seen used maybe once or twice since their install 15 years ago then I wouldn't worry too much.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by CallumParry »

some ideas are best left on a back of a fag packet this is hideous
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Conekicker »

Externally illuminated signs? Really? Clearly micro-prismatics on their own aren't good enough. Perhaps someone should tell sign manufacturers. Also what are the ball things sticking out in front of the signs, cameras? Presumably to confirm the sign has deployed correctly. What if it hasn't though.

As for the barriers, I trust someone has bothered to get them authorised by DfT. And laid in a stock of replacements for when they get whacked. We'll quickly gloss over the inevitable numerous problems of mechanical moving parts placed in the central reserve or verge of a motorway metres few away from all the muck that passing traffic will throw at said moving parts, shall we?

What happens when one or more of the barriers fails to retract when the taper is removed? Or decides to deploy on it's own due to mechanical failure. What happens if you want to close more than one lane?

The point RichardA35 raises about the working width of the barrier and what appears to be a substantial lump of concrete is very relevant and should be raising alarm bells if it hasn't been taken into consideration. But we mustn't stand in the way of innovation now, must we children?

Still, doubtless a very considerable 6 figure pile of cash will be thrown at the proposers of this kit, earning them a tidy profit, so it's all to the good eh?
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 22:39 Externally illuminated signs? Really? Clearly micro-prismatics on their own aren't good enough. Perhaps someone should tell sign manufacturers. Also what are the ball things sticking out in front of the signs, cameras? Presumably to confirm the sign has deployed correctly. What if it hasn't though.

As for the barriers, I trust someone has bothered to get them authorised by DfT. And laid in a stock of replacements for when they get whacked. We'll quickly gloss over the inevitable numerous problems of mechanical moving parts placed in the central reserve or verge of a motorway metres few away from all the muck that passing traffic will throw at said moving parts, shall we?

What happens when one or more of the barriers fails to retract when the taper is removed? Or decides to deploy on it's own due to mechanical failure. What happens if you want to close more than one lane?

The point RichardA35 raises about the working width of the barrier and what appears to be a substantial lump of concrete is very relevant and should be raising alarm bells if it hasn't been taken into consideration. But we mustn't stand in the way of innovation now, must we children?

Still, doubtless a very considerable 6 figure pile of cash will be thrown at the proposers of this kit, earning them a tidy profit, so it's all to the good eh?
I'm guessing it's innovation bonus season before financial year end kicking in again.

What is genuinely useful and seen in mainland Europe are lifting arm barriers before tunnels so you're not relying on a red light to tell people not to drive into the blazing inferno ahead. Not sure why we don't bother with these.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by DB617 »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 21:08
Helvellyn wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 20:46 Red flags raised here - "digital", "smart" - all signs that usually seem to mean "well duh it's more high tech so of course it's better innit? Got to make stuff digital because!"
If they're as successful as the roller shutter lane closure signs on the M6 around Preston which I've seen used maybe once or twice since their install 15 years ago then I wouldn't worry too much.
Something something ROTTMS.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 23:00
Conekicker wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 22:39 Externally illuminated signs? Really? Clearly micro-prismatics on their own aren't good enough. Perhaps someone should tell sign manufacturers. Also what are the ball things sticking out in front of the signs, cameras? Presumably to confirm the sign has deployed correctly. What if it hasn't though.

As for the barriers, I trust someone has bothered to get them authorised by DfT. And laid in a stock of replacements for when they get whacked. We'll quickly gloss over the inevitable numerous problems of mechanical moving parts placed in the central reserve or verge of a motorway metres few away from all the muck that passing traffic will throw at said moving parts, shall we?

What happens when one or more of the barriers fails to retract when the taper is removed? Or decides to deploy on it's own due to mechanical failure. What happens if you want to close more than one lane?

The point RichardA35 raises about the working width of the barrier and what appears to be a substantial lump of concrete is very relevant and should be raising alarm bells if it hasn't been taken into consideration. But we mustn't stand in the way of innovation now, must we children?

Still, doubtless a very considerable 6 figure pile of cash will be thrown at the proposers of this kit, earning them a tidy profit, so it's all to the good eh?
I'm guessing it's innovation bonus season before financial year end kicking in again.

What is genuinely useful and seen in mainland Europe are lifting arm barriers before tunnels so you're not relying on a red light to tell people not to drive into the blazing inferno ahead. Not sure why we don't bother with these.
Ah the good old innovation bandwagon, which MUST be jumped on by every contractor who wants to keep up their profile with the client. No matter how barmy the innovative idea they put forward might actually be.

Barriers you say? We do (although they might be better if they were the level crossing type) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.97816 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Micro The Maniac »

I'm more than concerned that there is an expectation that a particular stretch of road needs to be closed often enough to make these systems worthwhile.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by RichardA35 »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 06:52 I'm more than concerned that there is an expectation that a particular stretch of road needs to be closed often enough to make these systems worthwhile.
Hindhead tunnel which has regular closures. During 2019 there were 14 vehicle incursions into the works area. Now if we could absolutely trust motorists not to go through the cones...
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Herned »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 06:52 I'm more than concerned that there is an expectation that a particular stretch of road needs to be closed often enough to make these systems worthwhile.
Tunnels need a lot of maintenance: lighting, ventilation etc. which a normal section of road doesn't need
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by jnty »

Keiji wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 20:30 How failsafe are these? Is there any chance - any nonzero chance at all - that one could suddenly swing out into the path of a vehicle when no warnings were displayed? My gut says the answer will be yes meaning it's only a matter of time til one of these kills someone.

At least the current procedure of driving a big lorry (or even better an IPV) down the lane and dropping cones from it means there's a big, obvious human-driven vehicle in front of you that you can't miss.
Nothing's ever impossible but the chances of that happening will be extremely low - and even then, it's by no means guaranteed it would cause an accident. What's the chances of a maintenance worker getting killed or injured when laying cones? Maybe we should shut the road until we can guarantee the risk of any deaths occurring is zero.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by WHBM »

jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:24 What's the chances of a maintenance worker getting killed or injured when laying cones?
Well those figures must be known. What such incidents have there been ?

I do recall that a generation ago coning off on motorways was preceded by a police car behind with flashing blues. That has now been withdrawn and the coning lorry does it on its own. What was the decision process behind that ?

It's also apparent that coning off can happen anywhere on the network, but this is a fixed installation at just one place. Why is it different, should such closures not have a consistent approach throughout, and why is it necessary to close off so regularly here ? It does seem to me to be a solution in search of a problem.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:33
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:24 What's the chances of a maintenance worker getting killed or injured when laying cones?
Well those figures must be known. What such incidents have there been ?
I've no idea - and it's probably not worth finding a figure because we don't have numbers for the barrier to compare - but the point is that the safety critical mechanical barrier system is going to be at least an order of magnitude more reliable, safety-wise, than any system which involves sending humans on to a live 70mph dual carriageway.
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Re: "Swift Gates" to be trialled replacing cone tapers

Post by Bryn666 »

RichardA35 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 07:02
Micro The Maniac wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 06:52 I'm more than concerned that there is an expectation that a particular stretch of road needs to be closed often enough to make these systems worthwhile.
Hindhead tunnel which has regular closures. During 2019 there were 14 vehicle incursions into the works area. Now if we could absolutely trust motorists not to go through the cones...
A very good question might be why does a relatively new tunnel require regular closures? Older tunnels which have regular maintenance regimes, for example the Mersey Kingsway, manage without going OTT on the techbro solutions, and still managed to score a rare "good" EuroRAP rating when the tunnel surveys were carried out in the 2010s.
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