Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

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ajuk
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Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by ajuk »

I've seen some roads shut as they were claimed to be rat-runs OK, that's subjective a lot of the time, but it's difficult to see how a road could be seen as a rat-run if it's named after where it goes. I've seen other examples of this elsewhere but there's been other reasons other than because we said so, such as a new road being built that meant it needed to be blocked off as was the case for part of Webdon Road in Bridgwater.
There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Al__S »

roads named after where they go can often be far too small for the amount of traffic that wants to go there- there's a lot of London Roads (for example) in towns and villages where there's been a bypass built. In those cases, if for some reason a lot of traffic is still trying to use the old route, then "rat run" might be an appropriate term? The sort of situation where as per usual Britain has made a bad job with a bypass and allowed developers to stick interminable roundabouts to access new developments all the way round
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Big L »

Al__S wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 06:47 roads named after where they go can often be far too small for the amount of traffic that wants to go there- there's a lot of London Roads (for example) in towns and villages where there's been a bypass built. In those cases, if for some reason a lot of traffic is still trying to use the old route, then "rat run" might be an appropriate term? The sort of situation where as per usual Britain has made a bad job with a bypass and allowed developers to stick interminable roundabouts to access new developments all the way round
All of the London Roads should be renamed after the first primary destination.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by jervi »

Almost all roads that are named after where they go are very old roads. Old roads can be very narrow and lined with old and potentially protected buildings, and as such closing these roads to through traffic is the best solution to provide a safe environment to pedestrians & protect the character of area.

These narrow routes are often bypassed (either by an actual bypass, or a better alternative) to serve through traffic, so closing them to traffic rat-running along them makes sense.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Mark Hewitt »

A lot of these aren't rat runs but have been closed to traffic. Eg Northumberland Street in Newcastle a very busy shopping street and of course so named as it's the way to get to Northumberland and was the A1 when numbers were first allocated.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by RichardA35 »

ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 I've seen some roads shut as they were claimed to be rat-runs OK, that's subjective a lot of the time, but it's difficult to see how a road could be seen as a rat-run if it's named after where it goes. I've seen other examples of this elsewhere but there's been other reasons other than because we said so, such as a new road being built that meant it needed to be blocked off as was the case for part of Webdon Road in Bridgwater.
There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
But the road in the GSV link isn't closed.
It is perfectly passable for cyclists and pedestrians.
This topic should really have been started in Transport and Driving if it is basically a moan about motorists not being able to pass through or added to the topic about low traffic neighbourhoods.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by trickstat »

Big L wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:07
Al__S wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 06:47 roads named after where they go can often be far too small for the amount of traffic that wants to go there- there's a lot of London Roads (for example) in towns and villages where there's been a bypass built. In those cases, if for some reason a lot of traffic is still trying to use the old route, then "rat run" might be an appropriate term? The sort of situation where as per usual Britain has made a bad job with a bypass and allowed developers to stick interminable roundabouts to access new developments all the way round
All of the London Roads should be renamed after the first primary destination.
As many of these roads contain residential and business addresses that would be rather disruptive. Also, there may already be a road in the same town/city/village named after that primary destination.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Chris Bertram »

RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:23
ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 I've seen some roads shut as they were claimed to be rat-runs OK, that's subjective a lot of the time, but it's difficult to see how a road could be seen as a rat-run if it's named after where it goes. I've seen other examples of this elsewhere but there's been other reasons other than because we said so, such as a new road being built that meant it needed to be blocked off as was the case for part of Webdon Road in Bridgwater.
There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
But the road in the GSV link isn't closed.
It is perfectly passable for cyclists and pedestrians.
This topic should really have been started in Transport and Driving if it is basically a moan about motorists not being able to pass through or added to the topic about low traffic neighbourhoods.
Pedestrians and cyclists routinely have access to places that motor vehicles cannot access, but we don't call all of them roads. In this case motor vehicles have been prevented from using a section of a road, therefore it is reasonable to declare it "closed" as a road.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 I've seen some roads shut as they were claimed to be rat-runs OK, that's subjective a lot of the time, but it's difficult to see how a road could be seen as a rat-run if it's named after where it goes. I've seen other examples of this elsewhere but there's been other reasons other than because we said so, such as a new road being built that meant it needed to be blocked off as was the case for part of Webdon Road in Bridgwater.
There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:

In many cases its because the old roads have been bypassed.
Bedford Road at the Black cat is one example, the modern route to Bedford is the A421 southern bypass.
In Cambridge you have Huntingdon Road no bypassed by the M11
At St Neots you have Cambridge Road that joins the A428
St Neots also has its own Huntingdon Road which is bypassed by the modern A1

Talking of which there are large lengths of Great North Road and London Road through the bypassed towns and villages between South Mimms and Gateshead. I would not advise you to use the London Road through Stamford as a rat run. It can take 30 minutes at 5 AM on a Sunday morning,

My personal definition of rat run is a short cut along residential roads that are unsuitable for heavy traffic. One such in my area is Gunnergate Lane which us used as a shortcut between the A172 and Stainton Way.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52971 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by WHBM »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:31 Pedestrians and cyclists routinely have access to places that motor vehicles cannot access, but we don't call all of them roads. In this case motor vehicles have been prevented from using a section of a road, therefore it is reasonable to declare it "closed" as a road.
Quite so.

I think some of us get a bit fed up here with those who constantly patrol for some perceived slight against cyclists (in particular) and pedestrians, often including reference to "NMUs" without explanation. If we are going to use industry jargon, then we can look at Road Closure Orders, which of course do not apply to pedestrians.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

jervi wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:08 Almost all roads that are named after where they go are very old roads. Old roads can be very narrow and lined with old and potentially protected buildings, and as such closing these roads to through traffic is the best solution to provide a safe environment to pedestrians & protect the character of area.

These narrow routes are often bypassed (either by an actual bypass, or a better alternative) to serve through traffic, so closing them to traffic rat-running along them makes sense.

Let me present the poster boy for old extremely unsuitable roads. Before the old Huntingdon Viaduct was built this was the route between Cambridge and the A1 at Alconbury

A604 to Godmanchester

Over the Town Bridge into Huntingdon
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.32713 ... 8192?hl=en

Along Huntingdon High Street
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.32821 ... 6656?hl=en

Along Ermine Street and through the Stukeleys to the A1 at Alconbury, talking of which I do miss the Alconbury UFO
https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/new-fi ... nt-8219822
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:23 But the road in the GSV link isn't closed.
It is perfectly passable for cyclists and pedestrians.
This topic should really have been started in Transport and Driving if it is basically a moan about motorists not being able to pass through or added to the topic about low traffic neighbourhoods.
Indeed it has been restricted to certain classes of traffic just as many trunk roads are restricted to non motorised traffic such as the A19 between the A174 and Wolviston and an atternate route provided for pedestrians and cyclists.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Bryn666 »

https://goo.gl/maps/uTgXTvLB7eKCTSML8

Good luck getting to London from this London Road. It runs north eastwards in Blackburn.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by RichardA35 »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:03
RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:23 But the road in the GSV link isn't closed.
It is perfectly passable for cyclists and pedestrians.
This topic should really have been started in Transport and Driving if it is basically a moan about motorists not being able to pass through or added to the topic about low traffic neighbourhoods.
Indeed it has been restricted to certain classes of traffic just as many trunk roads are restricted to non motorised traffic such as the A19 between the A174 and Wolviston and an atternate route provided for pedestrians and cyclists.
Quite correct and is something that the majority of users accept without moaning.
WHBM wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:51
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:31 Pedestrians and cyclists routinely have access to places that motor vehicles cannot access, but we don't call all of them roads. In this case motor vehicles have been prevented from using a section of a road, therefore it is reasonable to declare it "closed" as a road.
Quite so.

I think some of us get a bit fed up here with those who constantly patrol for some perceived slight against cyclists (in particular) and pedestrians, often including reference to "NMUs" without explanation. If we are going to use industry jargon, then we can look at Road Closure Orders, which of course do not apply to pedestrians.
Incorrect. If we are to use the correct terminology, it is a Traffic Regulation Order as the highway has not been stopped up.

Incidentally a look through SABRE maps shows that the 6" to mile sheet (NLS 1904) does not have the road present, only the cemetery access.
It appears to have been created during the 1930's as development increased and was later restricted sometime before 2008 (GSV image) so is hardly a new phenomenon.

As in all things, the road giveth and the road taketh away....
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:12
Good luck getting to London from this London Road. It runs north eastwards in Blackburn.
London Street in Edinburgh is an obscure back street, still partly cobbled. It's next to Dublin Street. Neither of course being named after where they go.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by trickstat »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:42 My personal definition of rat run is a short cut along residential roads that are unsuitable for heavy traffic.
That is my definition too.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by trickstat »

RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:08
KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:03
RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:23 But the road in the GSV link isn't closed.
It is perfectly passable for cyclists and pedestrians.
This topic should really have been started in Transport and Driving if it is basically a moan about motorists not being able to pass through or added to the topic about low traffic neighbourhoods.
Indeed it has been restricted to certain classes of traffic just as many trunk roads are restricted to non motorised traffic such as the A19 between the A174 and Wolviston and an atternate route provided for pedestrians and cyclists.
Quite correct and is something that the majority of users accept without moaning.
WHBM wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:51
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:31 Pedestrians and cyclists routinely have access to places that motor vehicles cannot access, but we don't call all of them roads. In this case motor vehicles have been prevented from using a section of a road, therefore it is reasonable to declare it "closed" as a road.
Quite so.

I think some of us get a bit fed up here with those who constantly patrol for some perceived slight against cyclists (in particular) and pedestrians, often including reference to "NMUs" without explanation. If we are going to use industry jargon, then we can look at Road Closure Orders, which of course do not apply to pedestrians.
Incorrect. If we are to use the correct terminology, it is a Traffic Regulation Order as the highway has not been stopped up.

Incidentally a look through SABRE maps shows that the 6" to mile sheet (NLS 1904) does not have the road present, only the cemetery access.
It appears to have been created during the 1930's as development increased and was later restricted sometime before 2008 (GSV image) so is hardly a new phenomenon.

As in all things, the road giveth and the road taketh away....
In a number of these cases, no actual named road has been closed, but a link from that to another road has been closed so that it is no longer a through route.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by jnty »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:12 https://goo.gl/maps/uTgXTvLB7eKCTSML8

Good luck getting to London from this London Road. It runs north eastwards in Blackburn.
London Street in Edinburgh is extremely disappointing in this respect too.

Coincidentally this was also subject to a modal filter briefly in 2005 but I don't think it meaningfully impacted anyone's travel times to London!
Big L wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:07 All of the London Roads should be renamed after the first primary destination.
:lol: quite right!
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by skiddaw05 »

jnty wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:53
All of the London Roads should be renamed after the first primary destination.
:lol: quite right!
[/quote]
The A11 heading out of Norwich is named after neither London nor the first primary destination (which would be Thetford) but has to the best of my knowledge always been Newmarket Road, presumably because this road is where the big houses are and Newmarket sounds more posh
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Isleworth1961 »

ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
Crossways Lane used to be part of a much longer Knapp Road, which was bisected when the last section of Morton Way was completed in about 1990, and this section was renamed shortly after. Knowing people who live down Crossways Lane, I can understand why they campaigned for it to be closed to through traffic, but I expect that would have inconvenienced them as motorists more than residents elsewhere in Thornbury (or from out of town). Latest suggestions are for it to be a 20mph 'quiet lane'.
So, what was so eye-rollining funny?
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