Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

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ajuk
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by ajuk »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:31
RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:23
ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 I've seen some roads shut as they were claimed to be rat-runs OK, that's subjective a lot of the time, but it's difficult to see how a road could be seen as a rat-run if it's named after where it goes. I've seen other examples of this elsewhere but there's been other reasons other than because we said so, such as a new road being built that meant it needed to be blocked off as was the case for part of Webdon Road in Bridgwater.
There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
But the road in the GSV link isn't closed.
It is perfectly passable for cyclists and pedestrians.
This topic should really have been started in Transport and Driving if it is basically a moan about motorists not being able to pass through or added to the topic about low traffic neighbourhoods.
Pedestrians and cyclists routinely have access to places that motor vehicles cannot access, but we don't call all of them roads. In this case motor vehicles have been prevented from using a section of a road, therefore it is reasonable to declare it "closed" as a road.
Exactly, I already prefaced the thread with the example in Bridgwater where the old road has been superseded.
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ajuk
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by ajuk »

Isleworth1961 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:58
ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
Crossways Lane used to be part of a much longer Knapp Road, which was bisected when the last section of Morton Way was completed in about 1990, and this section was renamed shortly after. Knowing people who live down Crossways Lane, I can understand why they campaigned for it to be closed to through traffic, but I expect that would have inconvenienced them as motorists more than residents elsewhere in Thornbury (or from out of town). Latest suggestions are for it to be a 20mph 'quiet lane'.
So, what was so eye-rollining funny?
Crossway means a road that links two roads together.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Isleworth1961 »

ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:02
Isleworth1961 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:58
ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 01:50 There was also a campaign near Thornbury to get a road called Crossways shut off to through traffic. :laugh: :roll:
Crossways Lane used to be part of a much longer Knapp Road, which was bisected when the last section of Morton Way was completed in about 1990, and this section was renamed shortly after. Knowing people who live down Crossways Lane, I can understand why they campaigned for it to be closed to through traffic, but I expect that would have inconvenienced them as motorists more than residents elsewhere in Thornbury (or from out of town). Latest suggestions are for it to be a 20mph 'quiet lane'.
So, what was so eye-rollining funny?
Crossway means a road that links two roads together.
That's nothing to do with here. In this case it is historical - what was the small group of houses there before Thornbury grew to join up with it became known as Crossways - so the Lane (and the nearby Crossways Road, which is a relatively newly created road - 1970s) is named after that. It was primarily renamed to differentiate it from the other end of Knapp Road, as the road was now bisected.
Last edited by Isleworth1961 on Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by the cheesecake man »

Big L wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:07 All of the London Roads should be renamed after the first primary destination.
:thumbsdown: London Road here turns into Chesterfield Road so renaming it as you suggest would cause confusion.

It also has a bus gate . The A61 was redirected along Queen's Road a long time ago. Noone would attempt to use London Road to get to London and noone has a problem with that idea.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

skiddaw05 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:51 The A11 heading out of Norwich is named after neither London nor the first primary destination (which would be Thetford) but has to the best of my knowledge always been Newmarket Road, presumably because this road is where the big houses are and Newmarket sounds more posh
Its also where the Horse Racing and training happens. Newmarket is a major destination , Thetford is not.

The first primary destination is not always the best choice. The simple reality is that those roads that have names, many do not, may have been appropriate prior to classification in 1922 but they are very often not much use 100 years on.

Let me give you an example. Prior to the 1980's the A19 went through the middle of Stockton entering along Yarm Road (now A135) down the High Street , through Norton and up to Wolviston along the Wolviston Road.

The extreme example may be the old A1 which between Dishforth and Newcastle is now the A167.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by baroudeur »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:42
Bedford Road at the Black cat is one example, the modern route to Bedford is the A421 southern bypass.
In Cambridge you have Huntingdon Road no bypassed by the M11
Although there is no indication at the Black Cat roundabout that the road to which you refer is named Bedford Road so no help to strangers and little use - as a rat run - to locals heading to Bedford
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Conekicker »

On my recent visit to Northern Ireland I was told that they don't tend to use road numbers all that much, rather refer to the road by the place the road is going to. They also apparently don't call them roads but "lines".

Anyone local to the province confirm or deny this please?
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 14:54 On my recent visit to Northern Ireland I was told that they don't tend to use road numbers all that much, rather refer to the road by the place the road is going to. They also apparently don't call them roads but "lines".

Anyone local to the province confirm or deny this please?
My non-SABRE NI friends don't refer to road numbers at all - one lived on the A2 near Derry and had no idea it was the A2. It's been bypassed now but they just call it the Clooney Road there.

Given the NI road numbering system is basically numbers chucked into a bag and whichever one fell out was allocated next, it's easy to see why.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

baroudeur wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 14:44
KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 09:42
Bedford Road at the Black cat is one example, the modern route to Bedford is the A421 southern bypass.
In Cambridge you have Huntingdon Road no bypassed by the M11
Although there is no indication at the Black Cat roundabout that the road to which you refer is named Bedford Road so no help to strangers and little use - as a rat run - to locals heading to Bedford

Unless of course you recall when it was the A421 to Bedford, as I do, or heaven forfend look at a map :)

In reality I dont see anyone using it as a rat run, the new A421 is MUCH faster. It can however be thought of as one of the roads that is useful in extremis. On my many journeys between Oxford and Cambridge I have used many routes to get home when all went wrong, There was one occasion when a multiple accident on the A421 had traffic backed up all the way from Cardington to the A1 when I ended up using the Barford Road to Tempsford and picked up the A428 at Little Barford
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by doebag »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 15:21 There was one occasion when a multiple accident on the A421 had traffic backed up all the way from Cardington to the A1 when I ended up using the Barford Road to Tempsford and picked up the A428 at Little Barford
Also good when the east bound flow up to the Black Cat is snafu’d.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Mapper89062 »

Part of London Road in Ipswich is closed to prevent rat-running. This was the road out of Ipswich to London before Civic Drive opened, after which you were redirected along Handford Road to the south (probably because if the D2 inner ring road had been completed, the western half of St Matthew's Street would have been a major S2 bottleneck between the ring road and the merge of the A45 and former A12 at Barrack Corner, and rerouting was cheaper than widening it.)

The other end of the redundant section has been similarly modified. You'd probably not believe London Road was ever the main route if it weren't for the name, as it definitely appears at both ends as though the new straight-on movement has always been there and the road isn't of particularly high standard.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

doebag wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 17:05 Also good when the east bound flow up to the Black Cat is snafu’d.
I also had back route home when the A14 got stuffed eastbound.

Get off at J16 head south down the B660 to Kimbolton and pick up the old A45 (B645) to the A1 southbound which is actually a GSJ and the along the A428 to the B1040
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by ajuk »

Isleworth1961 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:13
ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:02
Isleworth1961 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:58

Crossways Lane used to be part of a much longer Knapp Road, which was bisected when the last section of Morton Way was completed in about 1990, and this section was renamed shortly after. Knowing people who live down Crossways Lane, I can understand why they campaigned for it to be closed to through traffic, but I expect that would have inconvenienced them as motorists more than residents elsewhere in Thornbury (or from out of town). Latest suggestions are for it to be a 20mph 'quiet lane'.
So, what was so eye-rollining funny?
Crossway means a road that links two roads together.
That's nothing to do with here. In this case it is historical - what was the small group of houses there before Thornbury grew to join up with it became known as Crossways - so the Lane (and the nearby Crossways Road, which is a relatively newly created road - 1970s) is named after that. It was primarily renamed to differentiate it from the other end of Knapp Road, as the road was now bisected.
Knapp Road would also be a road named after where it goes.

As many people have been quick to point out.
Yes, of course it can make sense shut off a road off that is named after where it goes because the road is bypassed and is essentially redundant. However, in the past they at least had the sense to add the word "Old" to the original route's name. \
Then there's some more dubious examples where the Bypass isn't as a good as the original road and they still shut it off, like Bridgwater Road in Taunton which would still be useful as a through route, one does get suspicious that backhanders were at play with the developers.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by trickstat »

ajuk wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 00:15
Isleworth1961 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:13
ajuk wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:02

Crossway means a road that links two roads together.
That's nothing to do with here. In this case it is historical - what was the small group of houses there before Thornbury grew to join up with it became known as Crossways - so the Lane (and the nearby Crossways Road, which is a relatively newly created road - 1970s) is named after that. It was primarily renamed to differentiate it from the other end of Knapp Road, as the road was now bisected.
Knapp Road would also be a road named after where it goes.

As many people have been quick to point out.
Yes, of course it can make sense shut off a road off that is named after where it goes because the road is bypassed and is essentially redundant. However, in the past they at least had the sense to add the word "Old" to the original route's name.
The problem with that is that will often mean having to change a number of people and business's addresses in various places as well as the cost of new signs. Generally, if people are travelling to a different city, town or village they are more likely to look for directional signs than road names.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Herned »

ajuk wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 00:15
Then there's some more dubious examples where the Bypass isn't as a good as the original road and they still shut it off, like Bridgwater Road in Taunton which would still be useful as a through route, one does get suspicious that backhanders were at play with the developers.
The local plan has included building the urban extension at Monkton Heathfield for over a decade. The plan has always been for the existing road to be the main focus for the community, the school has moved there, and there are shops going through planning. Removing the fairly heavy through traffic from an area like that seems sensible to me.

Although the stupidity of not linking the western section directly to the A38 roundabout is baffling, and down to developers doing the bare minimum
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by Chris5156 »

the cheesecake man wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 13:19
Big L wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:07 All of the London Roads should be renamed after the first primary destination.
:thumbsdown: London Road here turns into Chesterfield Road so renaming it as you suggest would cause confusion.

It also has a bus gate . The A61 was redirected along Queen's Road a long time ago. Noone would attempt to use London Road to get to London and noone has a problem with that idea.
I think it was a joke about the conversation in the thread Big L linked to, not a serious suggestion.
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by KeithW »

ajuk wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 00:15 Yes, of course it can make sense shut off a road off that is named after where it goes because the road is bypassed and is essentially redundant. However, in the past they at least had the sense to add the word "Old" to the original route's name. \
Then there's some more dubious examples where the Bypass isn't as a good as the original road and they still shut it off, like Bridgwater Road in Taunton which would still be useful as a through route, one does get suspicious that backhanders were at play with the developers.
In many if not most cases they have not done so, if you see a street name Old North Road that is typically because the Old North Road is a different route to the Great North Road as in this example at Royston which is the A10
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.05630 ... 8192?hl=en

Great North Road at Baldock is the pre bypass route.

A major reason for building bypasses in many cases is to take the traffic out of built up areas. Let me give you 2 examples, the Papworth Bypass and Caxton Bypass on the A1198 ex A14 and variously called Ermine Street and the Old North Road. Both are longer than the original route which have been traffic calmed and speed limits reduced to dissuade through traffic from using them.

And here is Old North Road Station built in 1862 and closed in 1968
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.17448 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: Road shut as a

Post by chaseracer »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 07:12 A lot of these aren't rat runs but have been closed to traffic. Eg Northumberland Street in Newcastle a very busy shopping street and of course so named as it's the way to get to Northumberland and was the A1 when numbers were first allocated.
Still open to some traffic when I was a student in the 80s!
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Re: Road shut as a "rat runs" but named after where they go.

Post by trickstat »

c2R wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 08:47 Hertford Road in Stevenage: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8768246 ... 312!8i6656
I think that's an example of a bus gate that long predates me ever having heard the term myself (although I'm not a roads professional). I think it dates back to the development of the Bragbury End estate that is down that road and to the right and was put in around about 1980. That was the year may maternal grandparents moved into sheltered housing there.

I remember a letter in the local paper about 15 to 20 years ago moaning about police cars parking by this junction, suggesting they should be catching 'real' criminals. What tended to happen is that patrol cars would often choose to park there between calls as acting as a deterrent was something constructive to do in the meantime.
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