Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Bryn666
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Bryn666 »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 14:16 I remember in the early '90s my sister and her then husband attempted to travel through Manchester on the A6 and they found it very difficult to follow the route.
Pre-IRA bomb it was extremely difficult, today it's completely impossible. When Market Street was pedestrianised in 1989 or so the northbound A6 was severed - you'd have to go west from the then roundabout at Downing Street and then up Deansgate from the other then roundabout at that end of Mancunian Way. I don't believe this was ever properly signposted. After the completion of the inner ring road in 2001 there's no point trying to drive through the city centre, it's a miserable experience.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Glenn A »

The A8 was downgraded when it was replaced by the M8 from Newtonhall to Craighall, but the busier eastern section became the A89 as it was still a fairly important road serving Broxburn and Bathgate, while the more rural western section became a B road.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by NICK 647063 »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:02 While much of the A1 has been upgraded to A1(M) the reality is that traffic as a whole in County Durham has grown since the 1960's to the extent that parts of the old A1, now the A167 , are carrying as much traffic as they did before the A1(M) opened while the A19 has been improved to the extent that if anything between the Tees and Sunderland it carries more traffic than the A1(M)

In the south one of old incarnations of the A1 , the A1000 between East Finchley and Hatfield is almost certainly carrying more traffic than it ever did as the A1. At the intersection with the North Circular AADF is around 30k

The A46 from Warwick to Coventry and between Leicester and Newark are now very much improved and very busy but of course between between Coventry and Leicester it was supplanted by the M69

The A5 if anything has see increased traffic lately with the growth of Milton Keynes and the rash of distribution depots in the area around Rugby and of courseit remains Trunk for most of its length in England.

In the South East I will warrant that the A2 between the Medway Towns and Brenley Corner is carrying as much traffic as it did before the M2 opened.

One road that on balance has undoubtedly become less important would be the A38 which is not surprising considering how closely it follows the M5 for much of its route. Other examples would be the A4 and the A6 between Preston and Carlisle.
I often think this about many roads how they are busier now than before a bypass or motorway was built to relieve them, then I always think but what would have been the situation without the new road!

The A64 in Leeds is an example it was massively relieved by the building of the M1 east of Leeds, I’m a bit young to remember but I know a man who used to do the A64 into Leeds daily he said that overnight the traffic vanished, he then left work in Leeds and had to go back in at morning rush hour prior to covid and said it was actually worse than before the M1…….. I said but imagine it with that traffic growth and no M1, I think the biggest change is the reduction in HGV’s and the removal of long distance traffic, although the A64 was never downgraded it simply benefited from the M1, obviously the insane amount of traffic lights on the A64 doesn’t now help!

I think many routes like the A167 that in parts are busier than before the A1(M) built the difference is it’s mainly local movements, you don’t have the HGV’s or long distance traffic.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 20:41I often think this about many roads how they are busier now than before a bypass or motorway was built to relieve them, then I always think but what would have been the situation without the new road!
It wouldn't necessarily be that bad. Much of the traffic growth on a bypassed road would never happen if the road hadn't been bypassed, and is enabled by the bypass opening. If the road was always as busy as ever, fewer people would choose to make additional journeys on it.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by RichardA626 »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 19:22
trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 14:16 I remember in the early '90s my sister and her then husband attempted to travel through Manchester on the A6 and they found it very difficult to follow the route.
Pre-IRA bomb it was extremely difficult, today it's completely impossible. When Market Street was pedestrianised in 1989 or so the northbound A6 was severed - you'd have to go west from the then roundabout at Downing Street and then up Deansgate from the other then roundabout at that end of Mancunian Way. I don't believe this was ever properly signposted. After the completion of the inner ring road in 2001 there's no point trying to drive through the city centre, it's a miserable experience.
I'm sure it was pedestrianised before 1989.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by A303Chris »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 13:55 Similarly, while the A4 in Berkshire is probably well used for short journeys between adjacent towns and villages, you probably wouldn't consider it for driving between Newbury and Slough.
That is a good point, west of Newbury to Chippenham, the A4 is dead, but between Newbury and London is carries a lot of traffic, more than before the M4 was built but for different reasons.

Thatcham, to the east of Newbury has grown massively since 1980, but if you were heading east on the M4, you would not go to J13, you go to J12 as it is half the distance.

The same for the A4 between Reading and Maidenhead, the section between the A329(M) and B478/A3032 Charvil roundabout is not that busy, but between here and the A404(M), it is very heavy in peak times. The reason considerably development north of the Thames at Caversham and Caversham Park village. Given limited river crossings, the most direct route to the M4 eastbound is through Sonning, down the A4 and via the A404(M). It can take up to 15 minutes to get over Sonning Bridge at peak times, but still quicker than going through Reading to go to J11 or J10 via the A329(M)
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Alderpoint »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:23 While the M5 undeniably has removed traffic from the A38,
Can't say I noticed this yesterday when travelling from Derby to Birmingham - the M5 doesn't seem to have be built that far north and so the A38 is still a busy dual-carriageway.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Chris Bertram »

Alderpoint wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:28
trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:23 While the M5 undeniably has removed traffic from the A38,
Can't say I noticed this yesterday when travelling from Derby to Birmingham - the M5 doesn't seem to have be built that far north and so the A38 is still a busy dual-carriageway.
Pedant! Arguably M42/A42 relieve A38 in its function of linking Birmingham with M1 to the north, but looking at M42, you find that the former A453 has been downgraded north of Tamworth, to B4593 up to Measham, and then to a variety of B-roads and unclassified stretches via Ashby, until it reappears to serve East Midlands Airport.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by ForestChav »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:00
Alderpoint wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:28
trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:23 While the M5 undeniably has removed traffic from the A38,
Can't say I noticed this yesterday when travelling from Derby to Birmingham - the M5 doesn't seem to have be built that far north and so the A38 is still a busy dual-carriageway.
Pedant! Arguably M42/A42 relieve A38 in its function of linking Birmingham with M1 to the north, but looking at M42, you find that the former A453 has been downgraded north of Tamworth, to B4593 up to Measham, and then to a variety of B-roads and unclassified stretches via Ashby, until it reappears to serve East Midlands Airport.
Derby to Birmingham is still probably quicker on the A38 than on the M42 though. The M42/A42 is obviously a slightly watered down version of the original which was to cross the M64 and then head to Nottingham where the A609 meets the M1, but now it is pretty much a direct replacement of the A453 between Tamworth and the M1.

But getting from the M42 to the middle of Birmingham or also Derby is a bit more complicated than using the A38, from the M1 you'd have to either head up to the A52, or go back onto yourself via the A50 to pick up the A6. And from Birmingham you'd need to head in on the M6/A38M or A45 which is more complicated as of course the A38M takes you straight into the middle.

At least the M5 relieves the A38 south of Birmingham as far as Exeter though ;)

In terms of the A453, certainly the A42 and then later routing the A50 to the M1 rather than using A564 as was planned at some point does seem to have made the numbering look a bit silly. So the A453 starts on the A34 in Sutton Coldfield, disappears in Tamworth, then reappears on what was the north end of the A447, heads round to Castle Donington and the airport (where of course the original route heads off to Long Eaton) before going round the airport and picking up an upgraded link road from the M1 to the power station which was originally unclassified, this 2nd incarnation is wholly out of zone, and looks odd with the middle section renumbered. We saw the same thing with the A50 being A511 through Burton and Ashby to the M1, where we now have a "stub" of original A50 between M1J22 and Leicester city centre where either side it has been renumbered. This probably has no actual benefit other than tidiness but the A453 from M1 to Nottingham could be renumbered A50 and then the other bit of A50 just an extension of the A511.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Micro The Maniac »

ForestChav wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:05 This probably has no actual benefit other than tidiness but the A453 from M1 to Nottingham could be renumbered A50 and then the other bit of A50 just an extension of the A511.
I never quite understood why the A50 was not continued straight over the M1, to link up (and take over) Remembrance Way into Nottingham
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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The old A74. Now a decent long distance cycle route, and the B7076/B7078.
0A7A6A87-A220-46C6-9282-13C5605FB684.jpeg
In Lockerbie there are two old roads, since the motorway bypassed the bypass!
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:55
ForestChav wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:05 This probably has no actual benefit other than tidiness but the A453 from M1 to Nottingham could be renumbered A50 and then the other bit of A50 just an extension of the A511.
I never quite understood why the A50 was not continued straight over the M1, to link up (and take over) Remembrance Way into Nottingham
Having started off life as the A648 it seems that road really has caused headaches for the authorities. I'd argue the A50 north of Stoke should be renumbered too as something else because the "middle bit" of the A50 really should be a standalone route. I don't know, maybe once upon a time we could have built it and called it the M64.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 14:40
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:55
ForestChav wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:05 This probably has no actual benefit other than tidiness but the A453 from M1 to Nottingham could be renumbered A50 and then the other bit of A50 just an extension of the A511.
I never quite understood why the A50 was not continued straight over the M1, to link up (and take over) Remembrance Way into Nottingham
Having started off life as the A648 it seems that road really has caused headaches for the authorities. I'd argue the A50 north of Stoke should be renumbered too as something else because the "middle bit" of the A50 really should be a standalone route. I don't know, maybe once upon a time we could have built it and called it the M64.
I'd have thought that A42 (or ultimately M42) would be better for the A453 into Nottingham. I agree about extending the A511 into Leicester though.

Re. the A50, I've long thought that it would make sense to give that number to the A500 (all of it, to Nantwich, potentially including the part to M6 J15 too ). I suppose the reason why it survives north of Stoke could be that parts of it offer quite a decent alternative to the M6.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Owain wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 09:55
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 14:40
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:55

I never quite understood why the A50 was not continued straight over the M1, to link up (and take over) Remembrance Way into Nottingham
Having started off life as the A648 it seems that road really has caused headaches for the authorities. I'd argue the A50 north of Stoke should be renumbered too as something else because the "middle bit" of the A50 really should be a standalone route. I don't know, maybe once upon a time we could have built it and called it the M64.
I'd have thought that A42 (or ultimately M42) would be better for the A453 into Nottingham. I agree about extending the A511 into Leicester though.

Re. the A50, I've long thought that it would make sense to give that number to the A500 (all of it, to Nantwich, potentially including the part to M6 J15 too ). I suppose the reason why it survives north of Stoke could be that parts of it offer quite a decent alternative to the M6.
I am of the view that now it's 100 years old the A road system needs a centenary review and bringing it back into fit for purpose state. This would go hand in hand with my proposed review of direction sign control destinations and would cost millions so is never going to happen.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by ForestChav »

Owain wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 09:55
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 14:40
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:55

I never quite understood why the A50 was not continued straight over the M1, to link up (and take over) Remembrance Way into Nottingham
Having started off life as the A648 it seems that road really has caused headaches for the authorities. I'd argue the A50 north of Stoke should be renumbered too as something else because the "middle bit" of the A50 really should be a standalone route. I don't know, maybe once upon a time we could have built it and called it the M64.
I'd have thought that A42 (or ultimately M42) would be better for the A453 into Nottingham. I agree about extending the A511 into Leicester though.

Re. the A50, I've long thought that it would make sense to give that number to the A500 (all of it, to Nantwich, potentially including the part to M6 J15 too ). I suppose the reason why it survives north of Stoke could be that parts of it offer quite a decent alternative to the M6.

The obvious issue I have with doing that, is that the A42 number is already a bit of a fiddle, and is out of zone, if anything that section could have taken on the A453 number, but keeping the 42 number the same at least makes it a bit easier if you know the A42 ends up into the M42.

Adding to what Bryn said the section from M1 to A52 was initially an unclassified link road to Ratcliffe on Soar power station, at this time, the existing B679 through Wilford and Clifton then onto Gotham and Kegworth was the way out in that direction. At some point the link road was extended to the B679 which was presumably to where the Crusader island is, the whole road then became the A648 all the way to the A60. Then at a later point when the A453 took it on, the A648 became the B679 again, though I still think I saw some older mapping indicating this didn't happen straight away.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:02 I am of the view that now it's 100 years old the A road system needs a centenary review and bringing it back into fit for purpose state. This would go hand in hand with my proposed review of direction sign control destinations and would cost millions so is never going to happen.
You've said it before, and you've said it again, and you're still right!

Still, it's not as bad as Italy, where "road numbers are sacred" (Chris5156 on CRBD almost 20 years years ago), and what remains of the original F140 strade statali are almost exactly the same as when they were allocated - I suspect by Mussolini himself - in 1927. Many have been superseded not only by the autostrade, but even by newer, higher-standard SS-roads with numbers allocated sequentially rather than by their apparent importance, with the result that (for example) the SS647 has superceded the SS87, and the SS715 takes precedence over the SS73, while really important-sounding routes like (again, for example) the SS10 have pretty much disappeared!

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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Owain wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 22:24Still, it's not as bad as Italy, where "road numbers are sacred" (Chris5156 on CRBD almost 20 years years ago), and what remains of the original F140 strade statali are almost exactly the same as when they were allocated - I suspect by Mussolini himself - in 1927.
I think one of the things I wrote was that Strade Statale were like energy. They can be neither created nor destroyed, they just change state. It certainly feels true where you have a newer bypass that takes a number like SS12bis and the old road retains the original number, or when you have a numbered Strada Statale running through towns and villages parallel to a modern expressway that has no road number at all and goes by some bonkers designation like "FI-PI-LI".

I don't think it's really true that they can't be created or destroyed - quite a lot have turned into SR or been otherwise broken up; the SS2 has all but vanished, for example. But it's certainly true that the Italians are weirdly reluctant to match road numbers to actual travelled routes.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 00:14
Owain wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 22:24Still, it's not as bad as Italy, where "road numbers are sacred" (Chris5156 on CRBD almost 20 years years ago), and what remains of the original F140 strade statali are almost exactly the same as when they were allocated - I suspect by Mussolini himself - in 1927.
I think one of the things I wrote was that Strade Statale were like energy. They can be neither created nor destroyed, they just change state. It certainly feels true where you have a newer bypass that takes a number like SS12bis and the old road retains the original number, or when you have a numbered Strada Statale running through towns and villages parallel to a modern expressway that has no road number at all and goes by some bonkers designation like "FI-PI-LI".

I don't think it's really true that they can't be created or destroyed - quite a lot have turned into SR or been otherwise broken up; the SS2 has all but vanished, for example. But it's certainly true that the Italians are weirdly reluctant to match road numbers to actual travelled routes.
I think it's admin and bureaucracy related - the French are now just as bonkers with numbering. Ever since the first 1973 reform of N roads they've progressively gone from being a pioneering system to "what the hell" - as evidenced by the fact that departments can't run N roads, but everyone's heard of the N7 so instead of having the traditional D907 type renumberings you've got stuff like DN7.

And don't get me started on the recent M designation for "Metropolitan"!
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by the cheesecake man »

NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 20:41 The A64 in Leeds is an example it was massively relieved by the building of the M1 east of Leeds, I’m a bit young to remember but I know a man who used to do the A64 into Leeds daily he said that overnight the traffic vanished, he then left work in Leeds and had to go back in at morning rush hour prior to covid and said it was actually worse than before the M1…….. I said but imagine it with that traffic growth and no M1, I think the biggest change is the reduction in HGV’s and the removal of long distance traffic, although the A64 was never downgraded it simply benefited from the M1, obviously the insane amount of traffic lights on the A64 doesn’t now help!
You also have a good example of how roads some distance away can be relieved. Before the M1 east of Leeds was built I'd have used the M18 and A1.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Chris Bertram »

the cheesecake man wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 13:39
NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 20:41 The A64 in Leeds is an example it was massively relieved by the building of the M1 east of Leeds, I’m a bit young to remember but I know a man who used to do the A64 into Leeds daily he said that overnight the traffic vanished, he then left work in Leeds and had to go back in at morning rush hour prior to covid and said it was actually worse than before the M1…….. I said but imagine it with that traffic growth and no M1, I think the biggest change is the reduction in HGV’s and the removal of long distance traffic, although the A64 was never downgraded it simply benefited from the M1, obviously the insane amount of traffic lights on the A64 doesn’t now help!
You also have a good example of how roads some distance away can be relieved. Before the M1 east of Leeds was built I'd have used the M18 and A1.
I still do, but I'm starting from further south than you.
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