Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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ajuk
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Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by ajuk »

I was thinking it would be good to list in each of the motorway pages of the Wiki the roads that were downgraded or had some traffic taken away since the building of a motorway. Obviously for most motorways there will be the road the motorway closely follows, but often there are others.

This is an example that I put on the M5 article.
The M5 mostly supersedes the A38, a section of which between Waterloo Cross and Exeter is now the B3181, however the rest is still A road and which is still primary in places, it remains an important road for local traffic for much of it's length. Sections of the A46 were detrunked or made non-primary following the building of the M5, to a lesser extent the A429 may have lost traffic, but remains a primary route.
I was thinking of doing the M40 next as that seems to have taken over sections of the A40, A34, A43, A423, and A41.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by fras »

A74 down to B7076, and dual-carriagway sections singled
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Steven
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Steven »

The problem is that it proceeds from a false assumption, certainly in England and Wales; and without traffic figures it's very difficult to say where "had traffic taken away", as it becomes guesswork at that point. Yes, an all-purpose road that runs parallel to a motorway will obviously have traffic taken away from it; but motorways were designed to use mostly new corridors and to take traffic from a range of all-purpose roads. This is made clear by reading documentation such as The London - Birmingham Motorway: Traffic and Economics from 1960 regarding the opening of the first section of the M1, plus M10 and M45.

In your comment that you've put on the M5, you've quoted the A38, but you've also quoted the A46 as "sections were detrunked or made non-primary following the building of the M5", but which bits do you mean? A quick look at the Route Planning Maps on SABRE Maps will show that sections of the A46 were both Principal and non-primary prior to the opening of the M5, and my collection of early Landrangers indicate the same status after the opening of the M5, so the statement is inaccurate, or at least, unhelpful. Then it walks about the A429, a road that never gets particularly near the M5 with a speculative "may have lost traffic"; with no basis given for the claim.

The fact is that the M5 (when looked at holistically as part of the motorway network) will have relieved large parts of other roads in the vague vicinity, from the A449 and A435, to the A370 and A40, a huge number of roads in Bristol, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Worcester, the West Midlands conurbation etc etc etc, but without any evidence, claiming individual roads doesn't really tell anyone very much.
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From the SABRE Wiki: M5 :

England's M5 is a motorway running between the M6 in Staffordshire northwest of Birmingham and the A30 and A38 at Exeter, Devon. It meets the M42, M50, M49 and M4, and is the major route into the southwest of England from the Midlands and the north, as well as being part of the recommended route from London. Part of the section between J27 and J29 was opened as the A38

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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by KeithW »

While much of the A1 has been upgraded to A1(M) the reality is that traffic as a whole in County Durham has grown since the 1960's to the extent that parts of the old A1, now the A167 , are carrying as much traffic as they did before the A1(M) opened while the A19 has been improved to the extent that if anything between the Tees and Sunderland it carries more traffic than the A1(M)

In the south one of old incarnations of the A1 , the A1000 between East Finchley and Hatfield is almost certainly carrying more traffic than it ever did as the A1. At the intersection with the North Circular AADF is around 30k

The A46 from Warwick to Coventry and between Leicester and Newark are now very much improved and very busy but of course between between Coventry and Leicester it was supplanted by the M69

The A5 if anything has see increased traffic lately with the growth of Milton Keynes and the rash of distribution depots in the area around Rugby and of courseit remains Trunk for most of its length in England.

In the South East I will warrant that the A2 between the Medway Towns and Brenley Corner is carrying as much traffic as it did before the M2 opened.

One road that on balance has undoubtedly become less important would be the A38 which is not surprising considering how closely it follows the M5 for much of its route. Other examples would be the A4 and the A6 between Preston and Carlisle.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by trickstat »

While the M5 undeniably has removed traffic from the A38, its very existence has meant people undertaking journeys that would have been very rarely made before. In a world where the M5 doesn't exist, very few people from the western Midlands and NW England would be driving to Devon and Cornwall for holidays and weekend breaks, for instance.

I think some part of routes like the A4, A6 and former A1 can still be rather busy at peak times. Pre lockdown, the B197 Great North Road to the north of Stevenage was probably at least as busy during the morning and evening weekday peaks as it was as the A1 at the beginning of the 1960s despite being much quieter at other times. I suspect the A4 is similar near places like Reading, Newbury and Bath and the A6 near Preston. The A20 has obviously lost traffic to the M20 but may similarly be busy at peak times near Maidstone and Ashford.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Glenn A »

The M6 and M61 replaced the A6 from Carlisle to Manchester for long distance traffic, but the A6 south of Manchester remains an important road from Manchester to Derby and from Leicester to Bedford, where many sections have been dualled and important settlements by passed. South of Bedford, the A6 loses its importance as most traffic heading to London would use the M1 and now ends just south of Luton. The A6 south of Luton, which was mostly replaced by the M1, became the A1081 in 1980.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by KeithW »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:23 While the M5 undeniably has removed traffic from the A38, its very existence has meant people undertaking journeys that would have been very rarely made before. In a world where the M5 doesn't exist, very few people from the western Midlands and NW England would be driving to Devon and Cornwall for holidays and weekend breaks, for instance.

I think some part of routes like the A4, A6 and former A1 can still be rather busy at peak times. Pre lockdown, the B197 Great North Road to the north of Stevenage was probably at least as busy during the morning and evening weekday peaks as it was as the A1 at the beginning of the 1960s despite being much quieter at other times. I suspect the A4 is similar near places like Reading, Newbury and Bath and the A6 near Preston. The A20 has obviously lost traffic to the M20 but may similarly be busy at peak times near Maidstone and Ashford.
There were quite a lot of us doing that for main holidays in fact. My typical route from Middlesbrough in the early 1970's was
A19/A168 to A1
A1/A1(M) to Doncaster
M18 to M1
M1 to Derby and the A38

We would aim to have a overnight stay south of Gloucester and make a crack of dawn start to get past Bristol and Exeter as early as possible. There was always a lively discussion in the pub about the best route, some still took the Fosse Way.

I still have the AA route planning map from that trip.
Last edited by KeithW on Sun Jan 16, 2022 13:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Bryn666 »

The A6 between Manchester and Preston is nowhere near "relieved" by the M61. It's chock solid for long sections because of limited access points to the motorway meaning all traffic leaving Chorley towards Manchester has to trek down to Horwich and join at J6.

Likewise because the A6 doesn't intersect the M60 traffic levels between Over Hulton and Salford remain very high as this traffic has to either sit on the M61 in a wall of traffic or decant itself through Salford's suburbs.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Glenn A »

The A41 between Bicester and the M42 was replaced by the M40 and the road mostly downgraded to a B road. Also the A34, which to a lesser extent was replaced by the M40, became the A3400 from Oxford to Birmingham in 1991.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:23 In a world where the M5 doesn't exist, very few people from the western Midlands and NW England would be driving to Devon and Cornwall for holidays and weekend breaks, for instance.
I remember those days - the A38 was crammed with people driving from the Midlands down to the South-west, absolutely congested during daylight and busy all night with drivers like me trying to miss the jams - so maybe not for weekend breaks but very definitely for holidays.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by chaseracer »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:02In the south one of old incarnations of the A1 , the A1000 between East Finchley and Hatfield is almost certainly carrying more traffic than it ever did as the A1. At the intersection with the North Circular AADF is around 30k
Even at 9pm on a Wednesday night, this one can be 'interesting'... Ask me how I know!
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

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Glenn A wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:53 The M6 and M61 replaced the A6 from Carlisle to Manchester for long distance traffic, but the A6 south of Manchester remains an important road from Manchester to Derby and from Leicester to Bedford, where many sections have been dualled and important settlements by passed. South of Bedford, the A6 loses its importance as most traffic heading to London would use the M1 and now ends just south of Luton. The A6 south of Luton, which was mostly replaced by the M1, became the A1081 in 1980.
A major reason that many of these roads have been downgraded, whether its by de-trunking, losing primary status or being renumbered is that their routes tend to go through the middle of cities or large towns. I think the A6 is very much a viable option for a journey between the northern end of Luton and Bedford, as the A1081 is between southern Luton and St Albans. However, it would be considered somewhat eccentric, unless the driver was a learner, to use the old A6 route for a journey between St Albans and Bedford. Similarly, while the A4 in Berkshire is probably well used for short journeys between adjacent towns and villages, you probably wouldn't consider it for driving between Newbury and Slough.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by KeithW »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 13:18 The A41 between Bicester and the M42 was replaced by the M40 and the road mostly downgraded to a B road. Also the A34, which to a lesser extent was replaced by the M40, became the A3400 from Oxford to Birmingham in 1991.
True but in the 1990's onwards when I was driving from Oxford to Cambridge I was still taking the A34 to Bicester, the A43 to Northampton and the A45 to Thrapston for the A14. In theory the M4/M25/M11 was quicker but only when the gods of the M25 were smiling. The non motorway routes gave more flexibility and reliability, the A43 and A45 are still very busy roads for a good reason.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Glenn A »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 13:16 The A6 between Manchester and Preston is nowhere near "relieved" by the M61. It's chock solid for long sections because of limited access points to the motorway meaning all traffic leaving Chorley towards Manchester has to trek down to Horwich and join at J6.

Likewise because the A6 doesn't intersect the M60 traffic levels between Over Hulton and Salford remain very high as this traffic has to either sit on the M61 in a wall of traffic or decant itself through Salford's suburbs.
Yes I could add the A6 travelling into Manchester is busy, even the D3 section through Salford city centre, as this is one of the main access routes to the city centre from the north North of Preston, nearly all the long distance traffic transferred on to the M6, but Lancaster and Kendal are busy( Kendal is vile) at peak times.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by skiddaw05 »

The A11 downgrade following the opening of the M11 is notorious for using various different numbers along its length, allegedly to deliberately cause confusion and encourage traffic to use the new motorway.

If I've got this right the old route from the M11 is (north to south) B1383, A1184, A414, B1393, A104
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by trickstat »

I remember in the early '90s my sister and her then husband attempted to travel through Manchester on the A6 and they found it very difficult to follow the route.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by owen b »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 13:55
Glenn A wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:53 The M6 and M61 replaced the A6 from Carlisle to Manchester for long distance traffic, but the A6 south of Manchester remains an important road from Manchester to Derby and from Leicester to Bedford, where many sections have been dualled and important settlements by passed. South of Bedford, the A6 loses its importance as most traffic heading to London would use the M1 and now ends just south of Luton. The A6 south of Luton, which was mostly replaced by the M1, became the A1081 in 1980.
A major reason that many of these roads have been downgraded, whether its by de-trunking, losing primary status or being renumbered is that their routes tend to go through the middle of cities or large towns. I think the A6 is very much a viable option for a journey between the northern end of Luton and Bedford, as the A1081 is between southern Luton and St Albans. However, it would be considered somewhat eccentric, unless the driver was a learner, to use the old A6 route for a journey between St Albans and Bedford. Similarly, while the A4 in Berkshire is probably well used for short journeys between adjacent towns and villages, you probably wouldn't consider it for driving between Newbury and Slough.
The A6 starts in Luton, on the inner ring road at the roundabout with the A505, right next to the future home of Luton Town football club.

I live on the north side of Luton close to the A6, and yes, for me to get to Bedford I would use the A6. Getting over to the motorway and then taking the A421 from J13 is seven miles longer, involves a slow trek across Luton to the M1, and according to Google Maps would take 9 minutes longer right now to the A6 / A421 GSJ on the Bedford bypass.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Echoing other comments, I'm not sure it is as easy as saying that "Mx replaced Ax" - especially as the Ax road may not have been "downgraded"

For example, the M3 runs along side the A30, A31 and A33... but it only "superseded" a short stretch of the A33.

There were, of course, many consequential renumbering... but the only material changes related to Winchester to Southampton - but particularly to Winchester itself.
  • A30 unaffected?
  • A31 east-side downgraded to B3404 and rerouted over A272; west-side rerouted and renumbered A3090
  • A33 rerouted/truncated/downgraded - part to B3043
  • A34 trunctated; downgraded to B3335
  • A272 truncated/downgraded to B3420; part lost to A31; gained ex B3420
  • A333 truncated; renumbered B3335
  • A3097 downgraded to B3047; took over A31 west of Winchester
I may have missed some, so this is probably not exhaustive... there were additional renumbering within Winchester itself.
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by KeithW »

skiddaw05 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 14:15 The A11 downgrade following the opening of the M11 is notorious for using various different numbers along its length, allegedly to deliberately cause confusion and encourage traffic to use the new motorway.

If I've got this right the old route from the M11 is (north to south) B1383, A1184, A414, B1393, A104

Those are the current road numbers but at the time they were A604, A130, A11

Many of those roads at the time were very substandard, this was the A11 in Epping
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Re: Roads downgraded after motorways built.

Post by Chris5156 »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 13:55A major reason that many of these roads have been downgraded, whether its by de-trunking, losing primary status or being renumbered is that their routes tend to go through the middle of cities or large towns. I think the A6 is very much a viable option for a journey between the northern end of Luton and Bedford, as the A1081 is between southern Luton and St Albans. However, it would be considered somewhat eccentric, unless the driver was a learner, to use the old A6 route for a journey between St Albans and Bedford. Similarly, while the A4 in Berkshire is probably well used for short journeys between adjacent towns and villages, you probably wouldn't consider it for driving between Newbury and Slough.
Indeed, and the point of building the motorways was not quite as straightforward as “to take traffic off existing roads”. It was well understood when the motorway network was being built that overall traffic levels were increasing steeply, so the aim in many places was to displace long distance traffic onto roads suitable for high speeds so that existing roads could be freed up for local journeys. It wasn’t always the expectation that the old road would be quieter afterwards - or at least, that it would stay quieter forever.
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