Roads as county/local authority boundaries

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Rob590
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Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Rob590 »

Happened to notice today that the A5 forms the boundary between Leicestershire and Warwickshire for the best part of 19 miles. I know roads are used as boundaries, often for short stretches, but I'd have thought that 'natural' features - rivers, hill/mountain ridges, estuaries - are more commonly used than roads. Are there any county or local authority boundaries formed by a single road which are longer than that 19 miles? What other notable road-boundaries are there in the UK?
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Kalna »

Not quite what you were asking for but the M6 effectively serves as the boundary between The Lake District and Yorkshire Dales national parks as it passed through the Lune gorge. The NP boundaries are just a little distance either side.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Euan »

It's nowhere near 19 miles but the boundary between the Stirling council area and Perth & Kinross runs along the A9 where it is dual carriageway north of Dunblane. According to the 50k OS mapping the boundary runs along the central reservation of the dual carriageway between Todhill Burn and Geordie's Burn. However the road signs acknowledging the council areas sit opposite each other at the south end of where the road and boundary apparently merge. Additionally, the Balhaldie service area for southbound traffic lies just to the north of here and its address implies that it is within Perth & Kinross. It makes me wonder whether in practice the boundary may be just south of the road beyond Todhill Burn even if the map suggests it doesn't leave the road for another mile. I should note that unlike the A5 between Leicestershire and Warwickshire the A9 case relates to modern administrative boundaries while the historic boundary between Stirlingshire and Perthshire ran further south along the River Forth.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by WHBM »

The A5 section is surely the longest; I wonder when it was established as such, given that it's a Roman Road. Incidentally, the A5 also forms a long straight boundary, though not as lengthy, between London boroughs - Harrow and Brent on one side, Barnet and Camden on the other.

What seems to have developed more recently though is using main routes, especially motorways, as de-facto boundaries. The M6 is often seen as a commercial boundary between Liverpool and Manchester offices, while around London the M25 is commonly seen as a boundary with the outside.

It used to be more common in the days of smaller local authorities before the 1970s. In several places then, with boundary along the road, each might surface half the width, and the street lights, and even their operating hours, might differ on opposite sides. This seems to have changed now to agreements that one or the other, balanced overall, does any individual road. Are there many left with different lights or other features on different sides ? Around Crystal Palace in London, where five boroughs meet in a group of residental roads, there are annoying individual parking payment arrangements.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by FosseWay »

Rob590 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 22:48 Happened to notice today that the A5 forms the boundary between Leicestershire and Warwickshire for the best part of 19 miles. I know roads are used as boundaries, often for short stretches, but I'd have thought that 'natural' features - rivers, hill/mountain ridges, estuaries - are more commonly used than roads. Are there any county or local authority boundaries formed by a single road which are longer than that 19 miles? What other notable road-boundaries are there in the UK?
AFAIK the border along the A5 between Warwickshire and Leicestershire/Northamptonshire is ancient, presumably dating back to the time of the Danelaw, when the boundary between Danish and English-ruled territory followed Watling Street.

On the choice of features for borders to follow, I think "natural" is less important than "established, tangible and unlikely to move in the short term". Until the Industrial Revolution, there was little in the way of established, tangible and immovable landscape features that weren't natural, especially in terms of linear features (there've "always" been points in the landscape like hill forts, Stonehenge etc.). But in the 10th century when the Danelaw arose, it was already 500 years since the Romans departed, and 900 since most of the roads were laid out. By then, a Roman road would almost have counted as a natural feature, especially given that the people around then had a less clear idea of who the Romans were and when they built their roads. It certainly qualified as established, tangible and unlikely to move.
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trickstat
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by trickstat »

The Hertfordshire/Cambridgeshire border runs down the middle of the A505 Royston bypass. Royston's northern suburbs had 'overflowed' into Cambs so the border was moved about 30 years ago.

IIRC the Hertfordshire/Greater London (LB Barnet) boundary runs down the A1 just north of Stirling Corner, with the former on the west side and the latter on the east.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Steven »

FosseWay wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 06:18
Rob590 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 22:48 Happened to notice today that the A5 forms the boundary between Leicestershire and Warwickshire for the best part of 19 miles. I know roads are used as boundaries, often for short stretches, but I'd have thought that 'natural' features - rivers, hill/mountain ridges, estuaries - are more commonly used than roads. Are there any county or local authority boundaries formed by a single road which are longer than that 19 miles? What other notable road-boundaries are there in the UK?
AFAIK the border along the A5 between Warwickshire and Leicestershire/Northamptonshire is ancient, presumably dating back to the time of the Danelaw, when the boundary between Danish and English-ruled territory followed Watling Street.
It is, but the modern local authority boundary isn't quite in the same place as the county boundary - the county boundary runs along the middle of the A5, whilst the local authority boundary is slightly offset to the highway boundary.

It leaves to slight oddities in junctions, for example, Cross in Hand is as you might expect, split evenly into a Leicestershire half and a Warwickshire half; but it is entirely within Leicestershire CC's remit (though the A5 is trunk at this point so it doesn't matter as far as the road is concerned...).

There's a point here a short way to the south of Cross in Hand where the local authority responsibility for the land the A5 sits on swaps sides and instead of the LA boundary being SW of the A5, it becomes NE. This means that Gibbet Roundabout is again split evenly into a Leicestershire half and a Warwickshire half, but is this time is entirely within Warwickshire CC's remit.

Further south again, the Warwickshire-Northamptonshire boundary continues along the A5, but at this point the LA boundaries between Warwickshire CC and West Northamptonshire are the same as the county boundary; whilst to the north of Hinkley the local authority boundary swaps sides of the A5 again.

So, in short, yes the A5 forms the county boundary for a that far, but it doesn't form the local authority boundary for anywhere near that long!
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From the SABRE Wiki: Cross in Hand :

Cross in Hand is a small roundabout junction on the A5 near Lutterworth, forming an access both to the town and the large Magna Park industrial area.

Whilst the roundabout itself is relatively unremarkable, it is mildly interesting for showing up how historic county boundaries and Highway Authority boundaries often differ slightly in unexpected ways. The boundary between Leicestershire and Warwickshire is along the centre of the A5 Watling Street, whereas

... Read More
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Alderpoint »

The boundary between Coventry and Rugby was many years ago moved from the edge of the built-up area of eastern Coventry out to the (then new) A46 eastern bypass. Not surprisingly about half of this land has since been built on.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Kalna wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 22:56 Not quite what you were asking for but the M6 effectively serves as the boundary between The Lake District and Yorkshire Dales national parks as it passed through the Lune gorge. The NP boundaries are just a little distance either side.
True... but for the most recently designated National Parks, roads were used as boundaries, to be easy to identify on the ground.

The A27 was selected as the southern boundary of the South Downs National Park with only a couple of excursions (Binsted, Angoring) south of the road until Brighton... then after Lewes it forms the northern boundary to Polegate.

Likewise the A326 forms the eastern boundary of the New Forest for much of its length - which is causing issues with the proposed widening of that road. The A36 forms a big part of the north-eastern edge, and the A338 the western edge.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by FosseWay »

Steven wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 08:23 So, in short, yes the A5 forms the county boundary for a that far, but it doesn't form the local authority boundary for anywhere near that long!
Which makes perfect sense! At the time of the creation of the counties, and specifically the Danelaw, the Roman road was just a convenient, clear, tamperproof mark in the landscape. Just stick the border down the middle of it and the job's a good'un.

Today, LA boundaries are not so much to delineate "us" from "them" (the Lancs/Yorks border might be an exception :wink: ) and more to mark whose budget needs to cover which services, including roads. It presumably makes it easier if the whole of a road's width is in one jurisdiction (though point taken about trunk-ness).
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Jim606
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Jim606 »

I know I've mentioned this before, but several years ago the M62 was proposed as the new boundary between Bradford and Kirklees, however whilst this seemed to make sense, local loyalties prevailed.
Kirklees and Bradford (Boundary Proposals)
26 July 1990 vol 177 cc650-16509.38 am
Mrs. Elizabeth Peacock (Batley and Spen) I beg leave to present a petition signed by some 2,160 of my constituents in Batley and Spen, opposing the local government Boundary Commission proposals to move the boundary between Kirklees and Bradford to the line of the M62 motorway.
The main effect of the proposals would be to move the communities of Birkenshaw, East Brierley, Oakenshaw, Hartshead and Scholes from the Kirklees metropolitan district council to Bradford city council. That is not acceptable to the residents of the villages, or to others in my constituency who would be affected by the changes. The Boundary Commission for England cannot ignore 651historical and family ties when boundaries are drawn on maps. Local preference and tradition must be taken into consideration. Wherefore your petitioners pray that your honourable House will request the Secretary of State for the Environment to reject the Boundary Commission proposals.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... -proposals
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by TS »

No longer a Local Authority boundary, but Wallisdown Road in Bournemouth/Poole was the boundary between those two boroughs for its entire length, until the councils were replaced by Bournemouth, Christchurch & Poole Council in 2019.

The actual boundary followed the southern edge of the carriageway from Boundary Road to Canford Road/Bryant Road crossroads (severing the Uni roundabout when that was built), and then crossed the road and followed the northern edge of the carriageway for the remainder of its length.

Approaching the above-mentioned crossroads here, we see a Poole Borough bin on the left and a Bournemouth Borough one on the right. As the boundary is actually the pavement/frontage join left of picture, we don't see each borough's lampposts on each side of the road, but we do see the dark green Bournemouth ones this side of the junction, and grey Poole ones beyond.

This is also the postal boundary, so the even numbers are BOURNEMOUTH BH10 and BH11, the odds are POOLE BH12.
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solocle
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by solocle »

FosseWay wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 09:00
Steven wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 08:23 So, in short, yes the A5 forms the county boundary for a that far, but it doesn't form the local authority boundary for anywhere near that long!
Which makes perfect sense! At the time of the creation of the counties, and specifically the Danelaw, the Roman road was just a convenient, clear, tamperproof mark in the landscape. Just stick the border down the middle of it and the job's a good'un.

Today, LA boundaries are not so much to delineate "us" from "them" (the Lancs/Yorks border might be an exception :wink: ) and more to mark whose budget needs to cover which services, including roads. It presumably makes it easier if the whole of a road's width is in one jurisdiction (though point taken about trunk-ness).
And of course, the Fosse Way makes up a good section of the Wiltshire-Gloucestershire border.

This marker for the tripoint of the two with Somerset is just beside the road.
2575DF79-9E1B-4F37-B103-EA8322CFDC21.jpeg
92329F90-08FD-4230-9082-9BB861A24BAC.jpeg
Much of the border section is however a gravel byway:
6A2ABC1C-79BE-4AFC-9271-15C54FFE37C9.jpeg
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Jim606
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Jim606 »

Another issue of note, would be small village of Kildwick which was part of the Bradford Metropolitan District from 1974 to 1983 http://www.farnhill.co.uk/History_Docs/ ... ue%201.pdf. Now if IIRC, the Kildwick bypass A629 was built within that timeframe and the bypass ended at the then boundary between the Bradford MD & the Craven District of North Yorkshire? Although the new boundary is now to the east the change in the road between 'old' and 'new' still remains. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.910159, ... 384!8i8192

Another interesting note worth mentioning is Craven District itself is due to be abolished in April 2023 when N. Yorkshire becomes a unitary authority. I believe this is part of a wider plan to create larger (local government) authorities within England. So whilst, roads can change, so can the boundaries around them.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by KeithW »

The A66 forms large part of the northern border of the Yorkshire Dales NP for the rather pragmatic reason that its a physical artefact across the landscape rather than an abstract series of points, much the same is true of the southern boundary which largely follows the line of the A65
https://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/wp-co ... l-Maps.pdf

The boundary between the traditional counties of Yorkshire and Durham still largely follows the line of the Tees but modern local authority boundaries are rather different with Stockton-On-Tees now extending south of the Tees into Thornaby.

Most modern authority boundaries are the product of the work of various boundaries commissions during local government reorganisations which result in oddities such as half of Nunthorpe being in Redcar and Cleveland and the other half being in Middlesbrough. In this case I believe the boundary is the Esk Valley Railway Line

see
https://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/doc ... 9f/explore

Its worth recalling that Sabre Maps has a historic counties layer
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 7,-3.54199,
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 23:52 It used to be more common in the days of smaller local authorities before the 1970s. In several places then, with boundary along the road, each might surface half the width, and the street lights, and even their operating hours, might differ on opposite sides. This seems to have changed now to agreements that one or the other, balanced overall, does any individual road. Are there many left with different lights or other features on different sides ? Around Crystal Palace in London, where five boroughs meet in a group of residental roads, there are annoying individual parking payment arrangements.
I suppose this highlights the wisdom of using trunk roads, then - one side is one authority's responsibility, the other is the other's, and in the middle it's neither!
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by A303Chris »

At a more micro level it can cause fun for Planning Applications.

For example Church Road in Earley, near Reading, the boundary is actually the back of the footway on the western side of the road not the road as shown.

Therefore any planning application on land to the west of Church Road is unitary Reading BC, but the highway implications of the application are the responsibility of Wokingham BC, the highway authority for the road where access is gained.

The same happens along Huntercoombe Lane North in Burnham in Slough, boundary is back of the footway, so planning applications are dealt with by unitary Buckinghamshire Council , but the highway authority is unitary Slough BC.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by trickstat »

jnty wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:41
WHBM wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 23:52 It used to be more common in the days of smaller local authorities before the 1970s. In several places then, with boundary along the road, each might surface half the width, and the street lights, and even their operating hours, might differ on opposite sides. This seems to have changed now to agreements that one or the other, balanced overall, does any individual road. Are there many left with different lights or other features on different sides ? Around Crystal Palace in London, where five boroughs meet in a group of residental roads, there are annoying individual parking payment arrangements.
I suppose this highlights the wisdom of using trunk roads, then - one side is one authority's responsibility, the other is the other's, and in the middle it's neither!
Although the responsibility for the road itself lies with the national Highways body, the land will still lie in one LA or the other which may very occasionally have implications (for things like fly-tipping?).
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by rhyds »

One well known location is Llanymynech, where the Cymru/England and Sir Drefaldwyn/Powys/Shropshire border runs through the village and down the A483 centre line

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.7812119,-3.0921585,17z

In the past the different alcohol licencing laws between the two jurisdictions meant that you had to cross the road for a Sunday pint, whereas now the main issue seems to be differing Covid regulations.

Also, lets not forget the fun and games that is Chester FC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.18915,- ... a=!3m1!1e3

In short the Club claims that it is English and always has been, however its ground and three of four stands are wholly in Cymru/Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, and they apparently claimed a Covid support grant from Flintshire CC. Problem is that under welsh Covid regs they couldn't have a crowd at matches, but under the English rules they could. Now that Welsh regs are being relaxed the problem has gone away again.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by trickstat »

rhyds wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:31 Also, lets not forget the fun and games that is Chester FC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.18915,- ... a=!3m1!1e3

In short the Club claims that it is English and always has been, however its ground and three of four stands are wholly in Cymru/Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, and they apparently claimed a Covid support grant from Flintshire CC. Problem is that under welsh Covid regs they couldn't have a crowd at matches, but under the English rules they could. Now that Welsh regs are being relaxed the problem has gone away again.
AIUI the club's offices are very strategically positioned so that they are just in England.
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