M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by jackal »

This consultation provides an opportunity for interested parties to comment on the proposal to introduce, by way of Regulations, a permanent 60mph speed limit between just north of Junction 1 and just south of Junction 2 of the M5 ...

Currently, the levels of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) on this section of the M5 exceed the government’s air quality target value.

The 60mph speed limit is also part of National Highway’s programme to improve safety on the SRN. It is expected that the 60mph speed limit will limit the speed of vehicles travelling on this route so they would perform more efficiently, reducing emissions.
https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... eed-limit/
DB617
Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by DB617 »

The piecemeal nature of the slow reduction in urban motorway speed limits is starting to look like farce. I'm beginning to wonder if it would be more effective - and accelerate the inevitable - to write legislation for the whole lot, not do them one by one as the air quality worsens and the targets are lowered.

The only problem with this is of course enforcement and signage scheme costs. A few 10ks here and there for signs, pretty much useless, the enormous outlay of widespread SPECS, might actually be effective but offends current Treasury sensibilities to strip absolutely everything to the bone except border force and contracts to VIPs.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Bryn666 »

It always amazed me the M5 through there was never 60 or even 50 earlier than now, the bends have always had advisory speed limits on them because the alignment completely stretches "rural" motorway formation to the edge of the envelope.

I've really not got any issue with urban motorways having sub-70 limits. Perhaps NH need to address why the congestion caused by poor junction design at J1 and J2 contributes to air quality issues though, because they're not actually addressing the wider problem - a look at air quality heat maps for any motorway will show junctions as the big trouble spots.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by A303Chris »

This is the best quote from the consultation.
3.2. Enforcement
Obtaining an acceptable level of compliance with a 60mph speed limit (displayed on post
mounted static sign) is key to the successful and safe operation of the speed limit. No new
offences or sanctions will be introduced because of the proposed Regulations.
Enforcement of a 60mph speed limits would be carried out using a combination of the signs,
and traditional enforcement by the police. Given the nature of this speed limit, an initial
option may be taken by National Highways to write to users who have been identified as
exceeding the limit to explain the reason for the limit and encourage compliance
In other words the police do not support the reduction and will not enforce it. The same happened on the A331 and roads in Reading where they were reduced from 40 to 30 for air quality, the police have just said no need for reduction and enforcement will not be a priority. On the A331, Surrey Police just said the reduction does not meet your safety requirements for a reduction, it will be widely ignored as was the the top 50mph section, so is in effect unenforceable.

I want to know when we are all electric vehicles will the limit return.
The M25 - The road to nowhere
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by jnty »

A303Chris wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:16 This is the best quote from the consultation.
3.2. Enforcement
Obtaining an acceptable level of compliance with a 60mph speed limit (displayed on post
mounted static sign) is key to the successful and safe operation of the speed limit. No new
offences or sanctions will be introduced because of the proposed Regulations.
Enforcement of a 60mph speed limits would be carried out using a combination of the signs,
and traditional enforcement by the police. Given the nature of this speed limit, an initial
option may be taken by National Highways to write to users who have been identified as
exceeding the limit to explain the reason for the limit and encourage compliance
In other words the police do not support the reduction and will not enforce it. The same happened on the A331 and roads in Reading where they were reduced from 40 to 30 for air quality, the police have just said no need for reduction and enforcement will not be a priority. On the A331, Surrey Police just said the reduction does not meet your safety requirements for a reduction, it will be widely ignored as was the the top 50mph section, so is in effect unenforceable.

I want to know when we are all electric vehicles will the limit return.
From what part of that quote do you infer that the police are refusing to enforce this limit? The only reference to the police indicates that they will be expected to enforce it. I think that paragraph reads more like a detailed way of saying "we're not going to put any cameras".

While police make operational priority decisions all the time, the idea that they can collectively veto a law they don't like the sound of is a bit off in a democratic country. If they decided that theft laws were a bit silly for rich people as they have lots of money, that would cause an outrage - so why would it be OK for anything else? If there's an issue with the fact that the police see their role as enforcing road safety only, and not air quality, then either the police enforcement criteria need to be changed or another body needs to be formed with this responsibility.
User avatar
FosseWay
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 19621
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by FosseWay »

jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:59
A303Chris wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:16 This is the best quote from the consultation.
3.2. Enforcement
Obtaining an acceptable level of compliance with a 60mph speed limit (displayed on post
mounted static sign) is key to the successful and safe operation of the speed limit. No new
offences or sanctions will be introduced because of the proposed Regulations.
Enforcement of a 60mph speed limits would be carried out using a combination of the signs,
and traditional enforcement by the police. Given the nature of this speed limit, an initial
option may be taken by National Highways to write to users who have been identified as
exceeding the limit to explain the reason for the limit and encourage compliance
In other words the police do not support the reduction and will not enforce it. The same happened on the A331 and roads in Reading where they were reduced from 40 to 30 for air quality, the police have just said no need for reduction and enforcement will not be a priority. On the A331, Surrey Police just said the reduction does not meet your safety requirements for a reduction, it will be widely ignored as was the the top 50mph section, so is in effect unenforceable.

I want to know when we are all electric vehicles will the limit return.
From what part of that quote do you infer that the police are refusing to enforce this limit? The only reference to the police indicates that they will be expected to enforce it. I think that paragraph reads more like a detailed way of saying "we're not going to put any cameras".
It's not stated explicitly, but the bit I've bolded rather gives that impression. They're saying (a) that no actual enforcement should take place, rather just a letter, and (b) that those letters should be Someone Else's Problem (NH's) not the police's.

This seems to be an example of how the UK's aversion to time-limited restrictions causes problems. You *could* erect signs (static ones, not smartification with loads of electronics) imposing a <70 mph limit at certain times of day, say a 60 or 50 roundel with a plate underneath reading Mon-Fri 07:00-10:00 and 16:00-19:00 or whatever, if the problems are particularly acute at rush hour. Part of the problem with speed enforcement is that the authorities lost the public's faith ages ago, and it's now a constant war between drivers trying to get away with faster than the limit just because and the authorities reacting against drivers' uppityness while safety and common sense can go hang. I think that speed reductions introduced for specific reasons at specific times would be much more widely accepted and obeyed, even without 24/7 enforcement, if at the same time the authorities conveyed the message at other times that "the problem we're acting against with this limit isn't currently serious, so you can go faster just now". Same with temporary lights - you'll get better compliance if you engineer the network so that fewer people get held up at red lights when there is no conflicting traffic.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by jnty »

FosseWay wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:11
jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:59
A303Chris wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:16 This is the best quote from the consultation.



In other words the police do not support the reduction and will not enforce it. The same happened on the A331 and roads in Reading where they were reduced from 40 to 30 for air quality, the police have just said no need for reduction and enforcement will not be a priority. On the A331, Surrey Police just said the reduction does not meet your safety requirements for a reduction, it will be widely ignored as was the the top 50mph section, so is in effect unenforceable.

I want to know when we are all electric vehicles will the limit return.
From what part of that quote do you infer that the police are refusing to enforce this limit? The only reference to the police indicates that they will be expected to enforce it. I think that paragraph reads more like a detailed way of saying "we're not going to put any cameras".
It's not stated explicitly, but the bit I've bolded rather gives that impression. They're saying (a) that no actual enforcement should take place, rather just a letter, and (b) that those letters should be Someone Else's Problem (NH's) not the police's.
I don't think they're saying that no actual enforcement should take place - the sentence before explicitly states that it will. I think the bolded sentence is simply saying that, given the unusual nature of the limit, they may invest in an extra initiative as well - sending letters to those who are contravening the limit. Sort of similar to "grace periods" that are normal for things like bus gates and LEZs. Presumably it also means that speeders can be "caught" by people who wouldn't otherwise be able to issue fines. After the initial period I don't see anything in that paragraph which suggests speed enforcement will be taken any less seriously than on any other motorway, nor that the "letter-writing" system will stay for very long at all.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Bryn666 »

FosseWay wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:11
jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:59
A303Chris wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:16 This is the best quote from the consultation.



In other words the police do not support the reduction and will not enforce it. The same happened on the A331 and roads in Reading where they were reduced from 40 to 30 for air quality, the police have just said no need for reduction and enforcement will not be a priority. On the A331, Surrey Police just said the reduction does not meet your safety requirements for a reduction, it will be widely ignored as was the the top 50mph section, so is in effect unenforceable.

I want to know when we are all electric vehicles will the limit return.
From what part of that quote do you infer that the police are refusing to enforce this limit? The only reference to the police indicates that they will be expected to enforce it. I think that paragraph reads more like a detailed way of saying "we're not going to put any cameras".
It's not stated explicitly, but the bit I've bolded rather gives that impression. They're saying (a) that no actual enforcement should take place, rather just a letter, and (b) that those letters should be Someone Else's Problem (NH's) not the police's.

This seems to be an example of how the UK's aversion to time-limited restrictions causes problems. You *could* erect signs (static ones, not smartification with loads of electronics) imposing a <70 mph limit at certain times of day, say a 60 or 50 roundel with a plate underneath reading Mon-Fri 07:00-10:00 and 16:00-19:00 or whatever, if the problems are particularly acute at rush hour. Part of the problem with speed enforcement is that the authorities lost the public's faith ages ago, and it's now a constant war between drivers trying to get away with faster than the limit just because and the authorities reacting against drivers' uppityness while safety and common sense can go hang. I think that speed reductions introduced for specific reasons at specific times would be much more widely accepted and obeyed, even without 24/7 enforcement, if at the same time the authorities conveyed the message at other times that "the problem we're acting against with this limit isn't currently serious, so you can go faster just now". Same with temporary lights - you'll get better compliance if you engineer the network so that fewer people get held up at red lights when there is no conflicting traffic.
Whilst I agree we should be able to use time restricted regulations more freely in UK highways contexts, the problem with an air quality speed limit set by static times is it rather guesses when the air quality is bad, which is not quite the intention - for example does air quality suddenly become an issue at 6:01am?

I don't think these limits are ever going to be effective and it's just NH ticking the "We've Done Something" box - at least they're bothering to correctly sign this one. The M602 60 limit is on A-frame signs, with unlawful black borders around the yellow backing boards, and none of the signs are illuminated even by temporary lamps - worse still MIDAS still regularly activates advisory 60 limits for congestion anyway so the whole exercise is pointless.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
FosseWay
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 19621
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by FosseWay »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:32 Whilst I agree we should be able to use time restricted regulations more freely in UK highways contexts, the problem with an air quality speed limit set by static times is it rather guesses when the air quality is bad, which is not quite the intention - for example does air quality suddenly become an issue at 6:01am?
Obviously the preferable way would be to activate reduced speed limit signs when the air quality goes below a given value, rather like how speed limits reduce on smart motorways when congestion exceeds a given value. I got the impression that NH wanted a low cost, quick fix. I absolutely take your point that low cost quick fixes aren't necessarily the right tool, but if that's all you've got, you might achieve more overall (including respect for and compliance with limits in general) by broadly coinciding lower limits with higher pollution levels.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
SJobson
Member
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 22:08
Location: Staffs/Glos

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by SJobson »

Since there has been a 60 limit signed for this stretch for about a year, I’m surprised there isn’t more evidence of the improvement in air quality which has already been achieved by the reduced limit.

I don’t think I’ve seen any enforcement of the 60 limit at all during the last year. I have thought to myself that the air quality appears worse either side of the 60 limit than in it - particularly in the dip just south of the first bend and J2, and between the M6 junction and J1 again where the land is lower.
brummie_rob
Member
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 00:16

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by brummie_rob »

SJobson wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 18:45 Since there has been a 60 limit signed for this stretch for about a year, I’m surprised there isn’t more evidence of the improvement in air quality which has already been achieved by the reduced limit.

I don’t think I’ve seen any enforcement of the 60 limit at all during the last year. I have thought to myself that the air quality appears worse either side of the 60 limit than in it - particularly in the dip just south of the first bend and J2, and between the M6 junction and J1 again where the land is lower.
No enforcement at all and the police regularly ignore it as well. Average speeds on this section have always been lower anyway because of the bends; but leave those people to lanes one and two battling it out. Its similar to the M6 viaducts where doing a GPS 70 in lane three is usually well exceeding the speed of most vehicles to the point you remind yourself that you are doing the limit!
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7517
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Big L »

Warning. The link below is an advertising site that fits a bit of news around the ads.

Link

Much to my and I’m sure everyone else’s amazement, it is being reported that the air quality speed limits on the M6 (Witton) and M1 (Rotherham) are going to be removed.

Not the M5 limit though, and since a rather large waste incinerator is being built right next to that stretch in Olbury I can’t see the air quality there improving a great deal long term in any case.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17467
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Truvelo »

Big L wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 19:13 Warning. The link below is an advertising site that fits a bit of news around the ads.

Link

Much to my and I’m sure everyone else’s amazement, it is being reported that the air quality speed limits on the M6 (Witton) and M1 (Rotherham) are going to be removed.

Not the M5 limit though, and since a rather large waste incinerator is being built right next to that stretch in Olbury I can’t see the air quality there improving a great deal long term in any case.
Well that's a turn up for the books. I was expecting more urban sections of motorway around the country to have lower speed limits, not have them restored to NSL.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Micro The Maniac »

A303Chris wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:16 In other words the police do not support the reduction and will not enforce it. The same happened on the A331 and roads in Reading where they were reduced from 40 to 30 for air quality, the police have just said no need for reduction and enforcement will not be a priority.
And of course, the lowering of the speed limits has had negligible effect, as the congestion is caused by the poor sequencing of the traffic lights - made worse by the new lights at the A31 end.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Chris5156 »

The M4 now has a 60 limit “for air quality” between junctions 3 and 4. Which is fine, and air quality in that area probably isn’t very good… but it’s highly unlikely that traffic on the M4 is the main cause :|
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Bryn666 »

To be honest with the M5 they'd have had more support just saying the 60 limit was due to the sharp bends, which no longer have advisory 50 signs...
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17467
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Truvelo »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 20:35 To be honest with the M5 they'd have had more support just saying the 60 limit was due to the sharp bends, which no longer have advisory 50 signs...
I could never see the point of the 50 signs. Even in an artic 56 is perfectly possible without shedding the load.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9707
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by WHBM »

The main contributor to improved air quality in the West Midlands will be the energy tax impacting the many adjacent metal bashing industries - tax which the purchasers of steel products from there have to bear, but not of course if they import the same products from China.
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17467
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by Truvelo »

Many of the metal bashing industries in that area have closed. I worked at one from 1994 to 1996 which closed just after I left. Most businesses in the area now are tin shed warehouses.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
AnOrdinarySABREUser
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 16:49

Re: M5 Junctions 1 to 2 Air Quality - Speed Limit Statutory Instrument Consultation

Post by AnOrdinarySABREUser »

Call me controversial, but I think that the M6 between J3A and J11A, M5 between the M6 and J4A and A38(M) should be tolled and/or subject to an expanded (ultra) low emission zone. Of course, the M6 Toll should be untolled, but I fear that traffic levels on the M42 would rise to unacceptable levels, so a Western Orbital might be needed in this scenario, though it isn't necessary. Also, a discount should be offered to residents as it'd be unfair to deprive them of their access to the motorway network.

In addition to this, the public transport network in Birmingham should be expanded (trams, buses, etc) to provide viable, low-cost alternatives to road transportation in the city.
Truvelo wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 20:44 Many of the metal bashing industries in that area have closed. I worked at one from 1994 to 1996 which closed just after I left. Most businesses in the area now are tin shed warehouses.
Oddly, this reminds me of the HP sauce factory which you drove under along the A38(M) in Birmingham - specifically the conveyor belt or whatever it was which was used to transport the bottles around.
Post Reply