An overtaking lane that's too small

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DB617
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by DB617 »

michael769 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 22:50
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:54
This is just bad design, there's no provision in the regs for this layout.
It's kinda like a ghost island for the junction but someone forgot to come back and put the hatching in!
Wow. That is gory. If I drove past that with the SO she would probably be subjected to a good two minute rant on the local authority... :shock:
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Bryn666
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by Bryn666 »

michael769 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 22:50
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:54
This is just bad design, there's no provision in the regs for this layout.
It's kinda like a ghost island for the junction but someone forgot to come back and put the hatching in!
It has that feeling - the other problem with it is that the permissive side of the double whites is where the hatching should be which is a conflicting and unadvised marking - it happens here too and I've never liked it there either: https://goo.gl/maps/VcDhVSwt9V8Q7UeNA
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Kaasdrager
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by Kaasdrager »

As a local resident I can...well I can't explain it either, but I can provide a bit of context to some of the stuff that goes on here. I will say first of all that I have driven that road many times but I never noticed the weird half-lane somehow. I certainly have never seen anybody trying to use it to overtake anybody. As for some of the other observations:
MotorwayGuy wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 20:11 The markings and signage around that whole area are very strange and quite frankly, awful!

This section of road has narrow lanes
This road connects Woking to the M25 and so is fairly busy, unsurprisingly. An actual widening of the road would be great but I can understand why they tried to squeeze an extra lane in. The massive trees to the left may be the reason why they haven't widened the road, but I don't know for sure. Certainly there isn't exactly a lot of money being invested in the roads around here, going by the general state of the pavement.
These bollards are removeable. This setup is specifically because the little access road there leads to the nearby Christmas tree farm, which sees lots of traffic during certain times of the year. Each year they put extra signs up directing traffic via a one-way system, where you enter from the southern end of the access road (just past the ambulance post) and leave here where you linked to, at the northern end. This is also why there is a big 'TURN LEFT' marking on the pavement there.
tom66
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by tom66 »

I spotted another one, just outside of Milton Keynes, on the drive back today:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.01857 ... 384!8i8192

It looks like this might have been intended to allow for right-turning traffic to wait in the road, but it's an unusual design. Or possibly useful for overtaking pedal cycles or slow mopeds. The '<EEP LEAR' markings are just farcical in any case.
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JohnnyMo
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by JohnnyMo »

tom66 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 16:11 I spotted another one, just outside of Milton Keynes, on the drive back today:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.01857 ... 384!8i8192

It looks like this might have been intended to allow for right-turning traffic to wait in the road, but it's an unusual design. Or possibly useful for overtaking pedal cycles or slow mopeds. The '<EEP LEAR' markings are just farcical in any case.
Almost as if they want the traffic towards the centre of the road to prevent motor bikes overtaking without crossing the white line.

I wonder what the history is at that point.
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tom66
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by tom66 »

It looks to go back to at least 2003:

https://imgur.com/a/7EsMB6o

...but, unfortunately no aerial imagery for before 2003, as far as I can tell.
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Lockwood
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by Lockwood »

I used to work out of Chertsey - I recognise some of those features well.

I used to find the little signs on the road next to the main road odd, for a glorified cycle path. Then I saw the Christmas tree farm traffic.

I have almost certainly used that overtaking section, slept since then so can't remember too much about it.

Narrow lanes? Yes, those lanes do feel a lot narrower than others - feels quite a squeeze going from Ottershaw to Addlestone at rush hour.

No right turn, yellow box, white lines. Yeah, no clue why there are white lines in the yellow box. Something of interest are the arrows on the side property - they are the "use this lane" gantry arrows on their side. Can't see them on street view.

Edit: found an old photo
Chertsey arrow
Chertsey arrow
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Helvellyn
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by Helvellyn »

solocle wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:52 There's also the A66 here - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.66147 ... 312!8i6656.

They've been repainted since 2009 down to D1+2.
At least that one was just a on the cheap conversion to dual carriageway; you're looking at the original S2 there.
jnty
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by jnty »

tom66 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 16:11 I spotted another one, just outside of Milton Keynes, on the drive back today:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.01857 ... 384!8i8192

It looks like this might have been intended to allow for right-turning traffic to wait in the road, but it's an unusual design. Or possibly useful for overtaking pedal cycles or slow mopeds. The '<EEP LEAR' markings are just farcical in any case.
Something that occurs is if long vehicles that might swing left at the back use the road? If that were the case, trying to sneak by on the left wouldn't be sensible and the keep clear might be a poor attempt to highlight that?
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solocle
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by solocle »

Helvellyn wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 19:29
solocle wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:52 There's also the A66 here - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.66147 ... 312!8i6656.

They've been repainted since 2009 down to D1+2.
At least that one was just a on the cheap conversion to dual carriageway; you're looking at the original S2 there.
While in many ways less extreme, the same goes for the the A31 at Stoney Cross

It's a bit of a shock a mere minute after being on the M27!
Orillion
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by Orillion »

Rob590 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:28 A different situation but one which this reminded me of as it is about inappropriate lane widths, is the stretch of the A194 eastbound where the two lanes of the D2 merge to one but the carriageway remains comfortably wide enough for two non-HGVs - as illustrated kindly by the two vehicles on street-view here. I don't know the origin story here - were the two lane repainted as one because they were too narrow? - but the confusion that this causes is often uncomfortable to be in or see. Would function better with two lanes but a 'Wide Vehicles Straddle Both Lanes' sign.
I have used this road in both directions for the last forty years or so. If I recall correctly, the strange narrowing appeared after a fatal accident involving a pedestrian. There have been two or three different layouts in the opposite direction in an attempt, I suppose, to cope with a merging slip road and a petrol station exit.
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by trickstat »

jnty wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 08:20
tom66 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 16:11 I spotted another one, just outside of Milton Keynes, on the drive back today:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.01857 ... 384!8i8192

It looks like this might have been intended to allow for right-turning traffic to wait in the road, but it's an unusual design. Or possibly useful for overtaking pedal cycles or slow mopeds. The '<EEP LEAR' markings are just farcical in any case.
Something that occurs is if long vehicles that might swing left at the back use the road? If that were the case, trying to sneak by on the left wouldn't be sensible and the keep clear might be a poor attempt to highlight that?
Particularly as the usual meaning of "keep clear" is "don't stop here" rather than "don't drive/ride here".
tom66
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by tom66 »

Yes - surely a hatched area would be the way to indicate this. But it's certainly not the first time there have been original interpretations of the rules.

Another example of narrowed-but-not-really-narrowed roads is this very-wide offslip from the A428 which is more than enough to pass a HGV exiting.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2170413 ... 384!8i8192
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Barkstar
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by Barkstar »

I know this road - my brother lives in the area. It is a puzzle. As is this slip road onto the M6 at Holmes Chapel. It's been repainted since the GSV but you can see how narrow lane two is. I discovered it last weekend when looking to get passed an HGV. Even passing a car would be a bit squeaky.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2008, ... 8192?hl=en
SteelCamel
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by SteelCamel »

tom66 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 16:11 I spotted another one, just outside of Milton Keynes, on the drive back today:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.01857 ... 384!8i8192

It looks like this might have been intended to allow for right-turning traffic to wait in the road, but it's an unusual design. Or possibly useful for overtaking pedal cycles or slow mopeds. The '<EEP LEAR' markings are just farcical in any case.
The markings are just down to poor maintenance - it looks like the kerb and about a foot of tarmac have been lost under the vegetation, which is seriously overdue for cutting back. Have a look at the same location in 2008 - the lane is a good bit wider, though still on the narrow side.
tom66
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by tom66 »

Barkstar wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 08:21 I know this road - my brother lives in the area. It is a puzzle. As is this slip road onto the M6 at Holmes Chapel. It's been repainted since the GSV but you can see how narrow lane two is. I discovered it last weekend when looking to get passed an HGV. Even passing a car would be a bit squeaky.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2008, ... 8192?hl=en
It's tight, but the Bentley has enough space, just about:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.20142 ... 6656?hl=en

(not sure I'd try it, though...)

Even without the vegetation, I'd be surprised if anyone could legally overtake a vehicle moving slowly in the, er, '<EEP LEAR' lane, given it is barely wide enough to fit compressed characters. It might fit an original Mini or an Austin-Healey (~1.4-1.6m), but can't see anything modern fitting. But that makes me wonder if it's just been there since forever and no one has bothered to see if it needs to change.

Still don't think it explains the markings outside of Woking, though. Those are just *weird*.
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Re: An overtaking lane that's too small

Post by SteveA30 »

There is a short S2/1 on the approach to Scaynes Hill, A272 westbound. At the top of the hill, it becomes 30 so you have to move smartly to overtake then brake sharply.
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