New Mersey Crossing

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Bryn666
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Bryn666 »

They're open but there's a lot of 'by the side' work still going on.
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Glen wrote:A toll is to pay off a construction debt and/or the running costs of the infrastructure. A road charge is just a charge to use a road for the sake of charging.
A toll can also be an ongoing charge for using a privately constructed road/bridge where the owner continues to make a profit even after construction costs have been paid off.

The concept of a toll ending when the construction cost is paid off seems to relate to public road/bridge building, funded by government borrowing or PFI
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by KeithW »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: A toll can also be an ongoing charge for using a privately constructed road/bridge where the owner continues to make a profit even after construction costs have been paid off.

The concept of a toll ending when the construction cost is paid off seems to relate to public road/bridge building, funded by government borrowing or PFI
The Selby Swing Bridge is a classic example. The company managed to get an act of parliament passed in 1791 authorising a toll bridge. The original swing bridge was made of wood and was replaced in 1969 by a steel structure but the tolls remained. The toll was not high but the delays caused caused enormous traffic jams. The toll was only finally removed by the council buying the rights to the crossing from the operating company after 200 years of collecting tolls.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Phil »

duplicate post
Last edited by Phil on Mon Oct 16, 2017 18:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Phil »

duplicate post
Last edited by Phil on Mon Oct 16, 2017 18:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Phil »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: The concept of a toll ending when the construction cost is paid off seems to relate to public road/bridge building, funded by government borrowing or PFI
Except that understanding was blown out the water by the Governments decision to maintain tolls at Dartford.

Lets face it Scotland removes tolls yet still goes ahead with major new bridge construction where as the Westminster Government demands a previously free crossing gets tolled to build a new bridge that will cost less than the Scottish one.

As such I fully expect that tolls will remain on the Mersey crossings even after construction costs have been paid off (too much of a useful revenue stream for Whitehall) - no doubt with lots of PR spin about how they will be used to fund other 'transport improvements' in the area to 'justify' the decision of course.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by C83 »

So what size of bridge should be tolled? Thelwall and Kessock never have been, but are fairly significant. The New Mersey Crossing could be signed as a main route to Liverpool reducing traffic on the M6, that would have a positive effect on the network and save money on improvements elsewhere.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by fras »

Did I miss it on Jeni's video ? I saw no signs indicating a toll is payable. Are the signs the same as the Dartford & London CC signs ? I always think these toll-booth free crossings are a bit unfair on the very ocasional user who may not know anything about the toll, especially if crossing the old bridge. Is it really so easy to pay the toll if you're heading out somewhere and won't be back for a day or two. I don't think PCNs should be issued like confetti to vehicles that have never been recorded. A warning the first time, (plus a request for the toll) is better. I believe the Dartford people do this.
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Bryn666
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Bryn666 »

There are massive signs on all approaches, they're just not picked up on the video.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

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fras wrote:I always think these toll-booth free crossings are a bit unfair on the very ocasional user who may not know anything about the toll, especially if crossing the old bridge. Is it really so easy to pay the toll if you're heading out somewhere and won't be back for a day or two. I don't think PCNs should be issued like confetti to vehicles that have never been recorded. A warning the first time, (plus a request for the toll) is better. I believe the Dartford people do this.
There is a big problem with hire cars which nowhere seems to have resolved. The pay-by-camera schemes seem to allow you to pay in advance or retrospectively. So if you pick up a hire car, go through one of these tolls, and pay by whatever means they permit. But there is no way to relate your payment to your crossing - it's all about the car so you can easily end up paying for a different hirer's earlier tip. You then end up with a fine for the not paying the toll (even though you have) and a surcharge from the hire company for paying it on your behalf.

So when you do pay, make sure you get a receipt so you can dispute such charges.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

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Alderpoint wrote: There is a big problem with hire cars which nowhere seems to have resolved. The pay-by-camera schemes seem to allow you to pay in advance or retrospectively. So if you pick up a hire car, go through one of these tolls, and pay by whatever means they permit. But there is no way to relate your payment to your crossing - it's all about the car so you can easily end up paying for a different hirer's earlier tip. You then end up with a fine for the not paying the toll (even though you have) and a surcharge from the hire company for paying it on your behalf.

So when you do pay, make sure you get a receipt so you can dispute such charges.
Am I missing something? If there are no toll booths then surely there must be ANPR cameras and that means the vehicle is identifiable so payment can be linked to the vehicle.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

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But as Alderpoint states it merely links the payment to the car, not the exact time you went over the bridge, there appears to be no 'fail safe' to ensure your payment is directly linked to the trip you took with the car.

Lets say I hired an Astra from Knotty Ash, and popped over to see my ladyfriend in Runcorn. I use the bridge and return the car 9am the next morning, as per my agreement, but I'm not required to pay the toll fees until 23:59, so I pay it later on that afternoon.

The same Astra is hired out to my evil sister who goes to Runcorn and murders my ladyfriend, but because she's evil she has not paid the toll for her trips.

Where does my £4 go? On my trips or hers?
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

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One point was raised earlier today in work, which is going to cause some head-sratching for a while...

We deliver to a few companies in the Halton area. You'd think we could register the vehicle that delivers there. However, it's not always the same vehicle that goes. Nor is it the same driver on each occasion.

There's five vehicles that operate in that area. Do we pay five lots of monthly unlimites travel passes to cover the lot of them when there's a fair chance two or three of them might only cross the bridge five or six times a year, or simply remain unregistered and pay the full £2 and £6 tolls each way for all of them?

Either way, you're looking at some big bills throughout the year for an independent company...just to go about it's business.

At the moment, management is just going to 'suck it and see' for a few months to see just how much the toll bills rack up, but they're already considering introducing delivery charges for that area (when the bridge is required) to recoup the cost.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

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roverman wrote:But as Alderpoint states it merely links the payment to the car, not the exact time you went over the bridge, there appears to be no 'fail safe' to ensure your payment is directly linked to the trip you took with the car.
Exactly!!
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Benny »

haymansafc wrote:One point was raised earlier today in work, which is going to cause some head-sratching for a while...

We deliver to a few companies in the Halton area. You'd think we could register the vehicle that delivers there. However, it's not always the same vehicle that goes. Nor is it the same driver on each occasion.

There's five vehicles that operate in that area. Do we pay five lots of monthly unlimites travel passes to cover the lot of them when there's a fair chance two or three of them might only cross the bridge five or six times a year, or simply remain unregistered and pay the full £2 and £6 tolls each way for all of them?

Either way, you're looking at some big bills throughout the year for an independent company...just to go about it's business.

At the moment, management is just going to 'suck it and see' for a few months to see just how much the toll bills rack up, but they're already considering introducing delivery charges for that area (when the bridge is required) to recoup the cost.
If it was my firm, I'd be looking to see if I knew anyone with a firm in Dartford and ask how they deal with it.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by fras »

For the Dartford Toll, regular users can set up an account, but whether one can have several vehicles on it I don't know, perhaps somebody can chime in here and let us know.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Berk »

Alderpoint wrote:
roverman wrote:But as Alderpoint states it merely links the payment to the car, not the exact time you went over the bridge, there appears to be no 'fail safe' to ensure your payment is directly linked to the trip you took with the car.
Exactly!!
But you could make the same argument about the M6 Toll, really. At least with Dartford Crossing it’s specifically timed and linked with your registration - the website tells you. And I believe you get a postal receipt if you only pay by phone.

Besides, if you claim not to have driven your vehicle across at a given time, and it’s not in your immediate control, why haven’t you reported it lost?? :scratchchin:
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Berk »

fras wrote:For the Dartford Toll, regular users can set up an account, but whether one can have several vehicles on it I don't know, perhaps somebody can chime in here and let us know.
Yes, you can. I believe the system lays out the charges incurred separately against each vehicle.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by haymansafc »

roverman wrote:If it was my firm, I'd be looking to see if I knew anyone with a firm in Dartford and ask how they deal with it.
Indeed... We do deal with a company in Maidstone but how often they use the crossing themselves is something I don't know. I'm sure the relevant people here will be in touch if they know more than I do.

I will likely be involved in any meeting with regards to possible delivery charges for Runcorn/Widnes as I do deal with our company fleet. I'll offer a few suggestions on what might help limit costs (further consolidation of deliveries to that area immediately come to mind) and my own opinion on the situation but I certainly won't be making any final decision - that's out of my control!

As I said, they're just going to 'suck it and see' for the next few months and absorb the costs. They'll have a better idea after a few months just to see what losses are incurred. I'd imagine there will be a meeting just before Christmas and then probably the introduction of any delivery charges a few months into the new year - allowing a notice period customers.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by avtur »

roverman wrote:But as Alderpoint states it merely links the payment to the car, not the exact time you went over the bridge, there appears to be no 'fail safe' to ensure your payment is directly linked to the trip you took with the car.
I can't believe in this day and age that there are technologies that don't time stamp every transaction.
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