New Mersey Crossing

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vlad
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by vlad »

I had the opportunity of looking at what they're doing to the Silver Jubilee Bridge today whilst passing it on the adjacent railway bridge. I must say it seems odd there's no traffic using it. Whereas it's still open to pedestrians I didn't see any.

At the moment there are several of those works portacabins sitting on the bridge and there are men up in the rigging presumably figuring out what to do with it. It doesn't appear that they've started to do anything with the roadway yet, except on the Widnes side where they've removed the central barrier of the dual carriageway. It's still early days I guess.
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Glen
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Glen »

Berk wrote: However, not all tolls are government run. What about the Humber Bridge, for example??
Most tolls aren't operated by central government.
Only the Dartford and Severn crossings and the M6 Toll are accountable to the DfT/Highways England. And they are run as PFI concessions.

All the other tolled crossings are run by local authorities, joint boards or PTEs.
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Arcuarius
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Arcuarius »

Berk wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:
Berk wrote:I think the ‘giant’ signs being alluded to are no bigger than your normal information or ADS sign - large enough to see, but not until you get close.
300mm x-height, so motorway sized, and also 2 miles before the last exit before the toll. We've done this topic to death before, if you can't see these signs then stop driving.
“Signs as big as houses”, Kindersley said. They are big, but not massive. And impossible to see at all if a lorry is cruising past in lane 1. Though I accept you’ll have passed at least one or two other “C-Charge” signs. :wink:
They could easily be 4m wide by 7m tall. Sounds pretty much house-sized to me, although I appreciate the perspective you get as you drive past means they don't actually look that big.

Still plenty big enough to see though, unless you're blind.
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RichardA35
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by RichardA35 »

Glen wrote:
Berk wrote: However, not all tolls are government run. What about the Humber Bridge, for example??
Most tolls aren't operated by central government.
Only the Dartford and Severn crossings and the M6 Toll are accountable to the DfT/Highways England. And they are run as PFI concessions.

All the other tolled crossings are run by local authorities, joint boards or PTEs.
At Dartford, the Area 5 DBFO Co is paid a service charge to collect the charge for HM Govt as the PFI for the new crossing finished when the construction debt was paid off.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Bendo »

vlad wrote: I must say it seems odd there's no traffic using it. Whereas it's still open to pedestrians I didn't see any.
It isn't during the day. They decided it was too risky and there is a free bus instead.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Bryn666 »

On another thread:
Bendo wrote:So almost 10k a day down on the 80k+ / day figure Halton council had from 2008 which I expect would have grown a fair bit. Once the novelty wears off and people have been priced out of their jobs, it will feel even more deserted.
We have had a major recession since 2008 that had a massive knock on traffic. It only reached the 2007 peak about 3 years ago, so traffic growth has been nowhere near what people thought it would be 11 years ago.

I'm bored of hearing how £2 a day, which residents of Halton don't have to pay anyway, is pricing people out of jobs. As ever there is no evidence, just hyperbole.
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fras
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote:On another thread:
Bendo wrote:So almost 10k a day down on the 80k+ / day figure Halton council had from 2008 which I expect would have grown a fair bit. Once the novelty wears off and people have been priced out of their jobs, it will feel even more deserted.
We have had a major recession since 2008 that had a massive knock on traffic. It only reached the 2007 peak about 3 years ago, so traffic growth has been nowhere near what people thought it would be 11 years ago.

I'm bored of hearing how £2 a day, which residents of Halton don't have to pay anyway, is pricing people out of jobs. As ever there is no evidence, just hyperbole.
Maybe, but shouting from the rooftops that you've already issued 50,000 Penalty Charge Notices for non-payment doesn't help the situation. All traffic over a tolled road or bridge consists of two classes of traffic, those who have to go that way, and those who have a choice. I suspect that the toll and the quite severe penalty for non-payment, (about 30 times the toll) puts people off going that way, so they go somewhere else. This can be shopping or other leisure activities. Yes, it is easy to pay for people like us but there is a large body of people who are not up-to-speed on this modern stuff so they disappear almost overnight and thus destroy the economics of the bridge. It makes other shopping destinations more attractive, and there are plenty around that location.
Of course I should have added that if you go up the motorway on the Wirral and use the tunnels instead, you can still pay cash and therefore have certainty and peace of mind. We ignore this psychological stuff at our peril.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Berk »

^^I find this to be a not very convincing argument, at least I think only people older than 50 would be inconvenienced. Probably really only over 60, if I’m honest.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Bendo »

Bryn666 wrote:On another thread:
Bendo wrote:So almost 10k a day down on the 80k+ / day figure Halton council had from 2008 which I expect would have grown a fair bit. Once the novelty wears off and people have been priced out of their jobs, it will feel even more deserted.
We have had a major recession since 2008 that had a massive knock on traffic. It only reached the 2007 peak about 3 years ago, so traffic growth has been nowhere near what people thought it would be 11 years ago.

I'm bored of hearing how £2 a day, which residents of Halton don't have to pay anyway, is pricing people out of jobs. As ever there is no evidence, just hyperbole.
Noone is forcing you to read it.

Oh and in their justification for the bridge Halton Council put the figures at just under 90K a day so there had been growth.
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RichardA35
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by RichardA35 »

fras wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:On another thread:
Bendo wrote:So almost 10k a day down on the 80k+ / day figure Halton council had from 2008 which I expect would have grown a fair bit. Once the novelty wears off and people have been priced out of their jobs, it will feel even more deserted.
We have had a major recession since 2008 that had a massive knock on traffic. It only reached the 2007 peak about 3 years ago, so traffic growth has been nowhere near what people thought it would be 11 years ago.

I'm bored of hearing how £2 a day, which residents of Halton don't have to pay anyway, is pricing people out of jobs. As ever there is no evidence, just hyperbole.
Maybe, but shouting from the rooftops that you've already issued 50,000 Penalty Charge Notices for non-payment doesn't help the situation. All traffic over a tolled road or bridge consists of two classes of traffic, those who have to go that way, and those who have a choice. I suspect that the toll and the quite severe penalty for non-payment, (about 30 times the toll) puts people off going that way, so they go somewhere else. This can be shopping or other leisure activities. Yes, it is easy to pay for people like us but there is a large body of people who are not up-to-speed on this modern stuff so they disappear almost overnight and thus destroy the economics of the bridge. It makes other shopping destinations more attractive, and there are plenty around that location.
Of course I should have added that if you go up the motorway on the Wirral and use the tunnels instead, you can still pay cash and therefore have certainty and peace of mind. We ignore this psychological stuff at our peril.
There is only one category. All drivers make the choice to use the bridge or not.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Bryn666 »

I find it amusing that those who "are being priced off the roads" think a Northern season ticket will be cheaper than paying the toll too. Good luck with that.

Additionally if you're confused by online toll payment heaven help you trying to navigate a railway station ticket machine.

"Noone is forcing you to read it."

Funnily enough no one is forcing you to use a toll bridge either. Last I heard we had the freedom to change jobs and move house if a toll bridge is such a terrible imposition.
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nowster
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by nowster »

We're generally poor at advance signing of toll routes. For example the A57 in Lincolnshire is not signed as being tolled on advance signage, eg. from the A1.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Berk wrote:^^I find this to be a not very convincing argument, at least I think only people older than 50 would be inconvenienced. Probably really only over 60, if I’m honest.
Hey, steady on with this "ageist abuse"! I'd vote for at least 62!! :lol:
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by andrewwoods »

There is a debate today in Westminster Hall on the subject "Tolls on the Mersey Crossings".

It's live here

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nowster
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by nowster »

Was it triggered by a petition poll?
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by roadtester »

Went across this for the first time today.

I have to say I was very impressed!
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by fras »

We went to Bent's Garden Centre before Christmas, so I decided on a little detour. I paid for two crossings thinking we might have time to go both ways, but we only went one way, so in theory, I have £2 ready for another crossing. The new bridge is very impressive, but the roundabout to get onto it at the south end of the A557 involves a very tight LH turn, plus one has to be in the LH lane, but this is not made clear at all. The other thing is that everybody says the signs about a toll are very clear. Well to me they aren't and, FWIW, most people may see the sign and expect to see a toll-booth. I would think 99% of people in this area have used the Mersey tunnels which have booths and expect the same here.I would say almost nobody will have used the Dartford Crossing so one can understand why so many PCNs have been issued. Frankly, I think it is pretty poor do just dumping this new system on people. There should have been a period in which warnings were issued, but I suppose the greed of the authorities overrides all ethical considerations.
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

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fras wrote:Frankly, I think it is pretty poor do just dumping this new system on people. There should have been a period in which warnings were issued, but I suppose the greed of the authorities overrides all ethical considerations.
What better warning period is there than a solid year of people moaning about the idea of going online to pay the new toll?
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by RichardA35 »

fras wrote:We went to Bent's Garden Centre before Christmas, so I decided on a little detour. I paid for two crossings thinking we might have time to go both ways, but we only went one way, so in theory, I have £2 ready for another crossing. The new bridge is very impressive, but the roundabout to get onto it at the south end of the A557 involves a very tight LH turn, plus one has to be in the LH lane, but this is not made clear at all. The other thing is that everybody says the signs about a toll are very clear. Well to me they aren't and, FWIW, most people may see the sign and expect to see a toll-booth. I would think 99% of people in this area have used the Mersey tunnels which have booths and expect the same here.I would say almost nobody will have used the Dartford Crossing so one can understand why so many PCNs have been issued. Frankly, I think it is pretty poor do just dumping this new system on people. There should have been a period in which warnings were issued, but I suppose the greed of the authorities overrides all ethical considerations.
Motorists choose to go via a route that has a charge, they need to find out how to pay which is written on line and on signs at and before the point of charge.
How much simpler can it be? Or do motorists need a nanny state explaining everything to them in the simplest terms?
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Re: New Mersey Crossing

Post by Berk »

RichardA35 wrote:
fras wrote:We went to Bent's Garden Centre before Christmas, so I decided on a little detour. I paid for two crossings thinking we might have time to go both ways, but we only went one way, so in theory, I have £2 ready for another crossing. The new bridge is very impressive, but the roundabout to get onto it at the south end of the A557 involves a very tight LH turn, plus one has to be in the LH lane, but this is not made clear at all. The other thing is that everybody says the signs about a toll are very clear. Well to me they aren't and, FWIW, most people may see the sign and expect to see a toll-booth. I would think 99% of people in this area have used the Mersey tunnels which have booths and expect the same here.I would say almost nobody will have used the Dartford Crossing so one can understand why so many PCNs have been issued. Frankly, I think it is pretty poor do just dumping this new system on people. There should have been a period in which warnings were issued, but I suppose the greed of the authorities overrides all ethical considerations.
Motorists choose to go via a route that has a charge, they need to find out how to pay which is written on line and on signs at and before the point of charge.
How much simpler can it be? Or do motorists need a nanny state explaining everything to them in the simplest terms?
Only most motorists... don’t seem to think that way.

(I agree with you, BTW. It’s the first thing I would check before setting off.)
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