The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Enceladus
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Enceladus »

I can understand why the M6 Toll (a road I have yet to travel on) has a relatively low level of traffic in comparison to the very congested/heavy levels on the M6 through the West Midlands conurbation as the latter is free to use as is the remainder of the UK network barring a few bridges and tunnels but isn’t that the point, that the less congested nature of the M6 Toll acts an incentive for motorists not keen to encounter delays near Birmingham to avoid this?

Here in Ireland most of our motorway system is tolled and it works very well, but that is because the alternative toll-free routes are not very attractive to use in terms of being the old mainly S2 national primary routes that pass through towns and villages and thus are far inferior to the toll motorway sections that replaced them in the 1990s and 2000s. Our system is more similar to France in that regard but even then, there are large sections of the system that are toll free such as the M9, M18, M17, M11, M2 and 65km of the M7 from Naas to just beyond Portlaoise in the Midands.

Driving on the M4/M6 from Dublin to Galway, there are two tolls amounting to about €4.90 and two tolls from Dublin to Cork on the M7/M8 amounting to about €5.80 which IMO and that of most Irish motorists represents a cost worth paying. The fact that the M6 Toll is a one-off “stand alone” scheme that has not been rolled out anywhere else is more of the issue as I imagine it was politically very unpalatable to sell the concept for any further motorway construction in the UK. If there were more tolled motorways in Britain, the M6 Toll would not seem to be such an “abomination” in the minds of the OP and many other motorists who refuse to use it.
Last edited by Enceladus on Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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trickstat wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:22 If that 40,000 only represents a relatively small proportion of the through traffic that stays on the M6, and a particulrly small proportion of HGVs, then I am dubious as to whether it was worth inflicting a new motorway on Staffs and Warwickshire when the benefits to the Birmingham area haven't been that great.
More capacity at no cost to those who don't use it, I fail see a problem.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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DanT97 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:26 What the hell were the thinking back in ‘03 anyway? Why couldn’t they just open a normal motorway?
Suspect it was planned a bit earlier that '03 but I get what you're saying. Read through the thread to see several explanations.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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DanT97 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:26 What the hell were the thinking back in ‘03 anyway? Why couldn’t they just open a normal motorway?
It is a normal motorway for all intents and purposes, it's still D3M with all the features of a motorway. You just have to pay a toll to use it. This is not exactly unique anywhere in the world. Presumably the M4 and M48 were not "normal" motorways either. What the hell were they thinking back in '66? and '96?
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Enceladus wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:42 Driving on the M4/M6 from Dublin to Galway, there are two tolls amounting to about €4.90 and two tolls from Dublin to Cork on the M7/M8 amounting to about €5.80 which IMO and that of most Irish motorists represents a cost worth paying. The fact that the M6 Toll is a one-off “stand alone” scheme that has not been rolled out anywhere else is more of the issue as I imagine it was politically very unpalatable to sell the concept for any further motorway construction in the UK. If there were more tolled motorways in Britain, the M6 Toll would not seem to be such an “abomination” in the minds of the OP and many other motorists who refuse to use it.
It is understandable that people compare the M6 Toll to the Irish network with short bursts of toll sections that are not worth shunpiking for the cost or the distance, or with the French autoroutes which is a largely toll system with untolled sections, the best comparison is the Radiales of Madrid. The R4 for example starts around 1 km on the M50 from the A4, virtually mirrors the A4 Autovia del Sur and finally links to it it just south of the Madrid/Castilla La Mancha boundary. The difference? 6€ to use the R4, 0€ to use the A4. Apart at specif hours of the day, the time saving is probably not there.

Now if the UK network had been tolled from the start, the M6 Toll would just have been another toll network and built into the 'Midland Motorways' Franchise with the same ticket covering it or the M6. That said we'd probably have a much more different network if tolled. More kms but more D2 for a start.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:26
DanT97 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:26 What the hell were the thinking back in ‘03 anyway? Why couldn’t they just open a normal motorway?
It is a normal motorway for all intents and purposes, it's still D3M with all the features of a motorway. You just have to pay a toll to use it. This is not exactly unique anywhere in the world. Presumably the M4 and M48 were not "normal" motorways either. What the hell were they thinking back in '66? and '96?
Inherited from the Major years, and both Tories and Labour were in favour, in principle, of introducing tolls either in a cost per mile/km basis used or a vignette system. It was a real time experiment.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:33 Inherited from the Major years, and both Tories and Labour were in favour, in principle, of introducing tolls either in a cost per mile/km basis used or a vignette system. It was a real time experiment.

Which, of course, was just an expensive way of duplicating what fuel duty already achieved very effectively. But in the age of electric cars, per mile tolling may well return as an idea.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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SouthWest Philip wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:40
exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:33 Inherited from the Major years, and both Tories and Labour were in favour, in principle, of introducing tolls either in a cost per mile/km basis used or a vignette system. It was a real time experiment.

Which, of course, was just an expensive way of duplicating what fuel duty already achieved very effectively. But in the age of electric cars, per mile tolling may well return as an idea.
Of course though France and Italy have high fuel duties and motorway tolls, but I get your point. The idea of motorway tolls is that there would be more money for the non motorway primary network. I agree that per mile tolls with EVs are going to be looked at, and probably going to come, retrofitting our network for tolls is going to be fun. The motorways here are somewhere in integration between the French or Italian systems where they are largely tolled, and we forget that significant chunks of both are free to use, and the Belgian or Dutch systems where they are fully integrated.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:54
SouthWest Philip wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:40
exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:33 Inherited from the Major years, and both Tories and Labour were in favour, in principle, of introducing tolls either in a cost per mile/km basis used or a vignette system. It was a real time experiment.

Which, of course, was just an expensive way of duplicating what fuel duty already achieved very effectively. But in the age of electric cars, per mile tolling may well return as an idea.
Of course though France and Italy have high fuel duties and motorway tolls, but I get your point. The idea of motorway tolls is that there would be more money for the non motorway primary network. I agree that per mile tolls with EVs are going to be looked at, and probably going to come, retrofitting our network for tolls is going to be fun. The motorways here are somewhere in integration between the French or Italian systems where they are largely tolled, and we forget that significant chunks of both are free to use, and the Belgian or Dutch systems where they are fully integrated.
I notice that there are no tolls on the French autoroutes that are close to Paris. I checked the Paris-Brussels route and it appears that the tolled road starts at a point that is 49 km from Paris.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Vierwielen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:42 I notice that there are no tolls on the French autoroutes that are close to Paris. I checked the Paris-Brussels route and it appears that the tolled road starts at a point that is 49 km from Paris.
There are few tolls in Auvergne or Alsace. There are none in Bretagne, and only the A13 in Calvados is tolled in the former Basse Normandie, the Autoroute des Estuares is not tolled.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:46
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:42 I notice that there are no tolls on the French autoroutes that are close to Paris. I checked the Paris-Brussels route and it appears that the tolled road starts at a point that is 49 km from Paris.
There are few tolls in Auvergne or Alsace. There are none in Bretagne, and only the A13 in Calvados is tolled in the former Basse Normandie, the Autoroute des Estuares is not tolled.
I suspect that the Germans have leant on the French in respect of tolls in Alsace. If there were tolls on the French A35, then long-distance traffic would use the German A5. There might be similar political reasons for not having tolls in Bretange or Auvergne (possibly to keep travellers out of the villages).
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 20:26
DanT97 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:26 What the hell were the thinking back in ‘03 anyway? Why couldn’t they just open a normal motorway?
It is a normal motorway for all intents and purposes, it's still D3M with all the features of a motorway. You just have to pay a toll to use it. This is not exactly unique anywhere in the world. Presumably the M4 and M48 were not "normal" motorways either. What the hell were they thinking back in '66? and '96?
Bridges have always been a special case, whether on motorways or otherwise, and the continued existence of some bridges with rather trivial tolls (Newbridge-on-Wye, the "Plasticene" bridge at Bathampton, the Swinford bridge near Eynsham, the Warburton bridge and others) provides evidence of this.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by mikehindsonevans »

I wonder whether the clue might lie in the original project name: "Birmingham North RELIEF Road" (my emphasis).

The M6 was stuffed and crumbling. More capacity was needed. Surely no one would try and squeeze a fourth lane onto the Midlands Links viaducts? Oh, hang on...
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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DanT97 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:26 What the hell were the thinking back in ‘03 anyway? Why couldn’t they just open a normal motorway?
Decisions to build it as a toll road were taken in the early 1990s, design and public consultation took place during the 1990s and construction began in 2000 or 2001. So in 2003 they were probably thinking “we’ll, we’ve built it now, I suppose we should open it”.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 22:26 Bridges have always been a special case, whether on motorways or otherwise, and the continued existence of some bridges with rather trivial tolls (Newbridge-on-Wye, the "Plasticene" bridge at Bathampton, the Swinford bridge near Eynsham, the Warburton bridge and others) provides evidence of this.
Toll bridges were quite common in the Victorian era, there was no other source of income for them in the days before road tax and fuel duty. A town like Selby was not going to ask its rate payers to stump up so other people could pass through.

One of the classic toll bridges lost in North Yorkshire was the ha,penny bridge Saltburn which saved horse drawn carts charabancs having to go up and down 1 in 4 gradients. Once motor vehicles were adequate most of the income disappeared and it eventually became unsafe and was blown up.

http://www.saltburnbysea.com/html/halfpenny-bridge.html

There were also quite a few toll roads well into the 20th century. The lower Leas Toll Road , now a linear park open for bicycles and pedestrians was a motor toll road between Folkestone and Sandgate. It was closed to traffic in the 1970's as I recall the toll was 10p for a car. The problem for toll roads and bridges in the UK was that the toll was specified in the act of parliament authorising them so increasing the toll was not a trivial task. I believe the Warburton Bridge is to be refurbished and the toll raised to £1 to pay for it.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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KeithW wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:50
trickstat wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:22 If that 40,000 only represents a relatively small proportion of the through traffic that stays on the M6, and a particulrly small proportion of HGVs, then I am dubious as to whether it was worth inflicting a new motorway on Staffs and Warwickshire when the benefits to the Birmingham area haven't been that great.
More capacity at no cost to those who don't use it, I fail see a problem.
If it was as simple as that it would be OK to build toll motorways anywhere to relieve a little congestion here and there. It has to be worth the loss of what the land was previously used for and the disruption to those near it. I think in the M6 Toll's case this wasn't that great because it largely runs close to existing A road rather than wide open countryside.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Vierwielen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:54
exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:46
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:42 I notice that there are no tolls on the French autoroutes that are close to Paris. I checked the Paris-Brussels route and it appears that the tolled road starts at a point that is 49 km from Paris.
There are few tolls in Auvergne or Alsace. There are none in Bretagne, and only the A13 in Calvados is tolled in the former Basse Normandie, the Autoroute des Estuares is not tolled.
I suspect that the Germans have leant on the French in respect of tolls in Alsace. If there were tolls on the French A35, then long-distance traffic would use the German A5. There might be similar political reasons for not having tolls in Bretange or Auvergne (possibly to keep travellers out of the villages).
Toll free motorways tend to be urban or periurban, so in the UK context you'd see a toll free M25 with the toll barriers just outside it. Paris, Bordeaux, Marseille all have toll free motorways. Tolling them would partly defeat the purpose of building.

There tend to be toll free motorways near the Belgian, Luxembourg, and German borders. Again, tolling them would defeat the purpose and lose potential tax revenue. These areas in the Nord, the Moselle, and Alsace are also industrial and urbanised.

For Limousin, Auvergne, and Bretagne it is about regional development in traditionally poorer or sparsely populated parts of France. Indeed except for the Autoroute des Estuares Bretagne does not have motorways, but has a good network of toll free route nationale expressways. Funded by the central government and the region, it was for economic development, linking Brittany to the rest of France, but also the big naval port at Brest.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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The 40k daily users of the M6 Toll probably represent a large majority of the long distance traffic on the M6 corridor through the West Midlands. The proportion of local traffic on strategic roads is almost always higher than people expect. The toll will act as a deterrent to some users of course, but evidently a lot of people value the time and quality benefits as worth it.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Chris5156 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 08:18
DanT97 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 19:26 What the hell were the thinking back in ‘03 anyway? Why couldn’t they just open a normal motorway?
Decisions to build it as a toll road were taken in the early 1990s, design and public consultation took place during the 1990s and construction began in 2000 or 2001. So in 2003 they were probably thinking “we’ll, we’ve built it now, I suppose we should open it”.
Matches my recollection that it was built as a test to see how tolling would take root for future developments. Also by 2003 it would have cost a lot of money, see the Skye Bridge, to buy into public hands and remove the tolls due to how these are financed.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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exiled wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 09:18
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:54
exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 21:46

There are few tolls in Auvergne or Alsace. There are none in Bretagne, and only the A13 in Calvados is tolled in the former Basse Normandie, the Autoroute des Estuares is not tolled.
I suspect that the Germans have leant on the French in respect of tolls in Alsace. If there were tolls on the French A35, then long-distance traffic would use the German A5. There might be similar political reasons for not having tolls in Bretange or Auvergne (possibly to keep travellers out of the villages).
Toll free motorways tend to be urban or periurban, so in the UK context you'd see a toll free M25 with the toll barriers just outside it. Paris, Bordeaux, Marseille all have toll free motorways. Tolling them would partly defeat the purpose of building.

There tend to be toll free motorways near the Belgian, Luxembourg, and German borders. Again, tolling them would defeat the purpose and lose potential tax revenue. These areas in the Nord, the Moselle, and Alsace are also industrial and urbanised.

For Limousin, Auvergne, and Bretagne it is about regional development in traditionally poorer or sparsely populated parts of France. Indeed except for the Autoroute des Estuares Bretagne does not have motorways, but has a good network of toll free route nationale expressways. Funded by the central government and the region, it was for economic development, linking Brittany to the rest of France, but also the big naval port at Brest.
Worth pointing out that there are toll routes in the Ile de France. The A14, bypassing the oldest bit of the A13 (opened in 1946!) is tolled as is the A86 Ouest tunnel.

Most of the motorways in the Paris, Lille, and Marseille areas are the oldest in France - older than ours for sure. That's Marshall Aid for you...
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