The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Osthagen
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Osthagen »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:40
Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:11
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:10 Going back to what you'd number a 'free' BNRR as - I'd go for M42. Although M63 and M68 are available and in the correct zone, navigationally M44 follows logically from M42.
If it weren't for the M42 north of Water Orton having to be renumbered, make me a dictator and I'd reclassify the M6 Toll as well as the adjoining section of M42 to Catshill as the M45, creating a continuity with the M25.
And what happens to the current M45?
Sorry, I dislike the existing one having such a seemingly important number. If it is even deserving of a designation of its own, then I'd demote it to M4xx status.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by trickstat »

Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 14:24
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:40
Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:11
If it weren't for the M42 north of Water Orton having to be renumbered, make me a dictator and I'd reclassify the M6 Toll as well as the adjoining section of M42 to Catshill as the M45, creating a continuity with the M25.
And what happens to the current M45?
Sorry, I dislike the existing one having such a seemingly important number. If it is even deserving of a designation of its own, then I'd demote it to M4xx status.
M45x would save money on signage.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Bryn666 »

Truvelo wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:38
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:40
Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:11
If it weren't for the M42 north of Water Orton having to be renumbered, make me a dictator and I'd reclassify the M6 Toll as well as the adjoining section of M42 to Catshill as the M45, creating a continuity with the M25.
And what happens to the current M45?
Put in an at-grade roundabout where it crosses the A5 and declassify it. Sorted :)
Don't even joke about it...
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 14:24
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:40
Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:11
If it weren't for the M42 north of Water Orton having to be renumbered, make me a dictator and I'd reclassify the M6 Toll as well as the adjoining section of M42 to Catshill as the M45, creating a continuity with the M25.
And what happens to the current M45?
Sorry, I dislike the existing one having such a seemingly important number. If it is even deserving of a designation of its own, then I'd demote it to M4xx status.
Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.

(I now expect a whole bunch of post telling me I'm wrong, which rather would prove my point....)
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Bryn666 »

Alderpoint wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 20:50
Osthagen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 14:24
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:40

And what happens to the current M45?
Sorry, I dislike the existing one having such a seemingly important number. If it is even deserving of a designation of its own, then I'd demote it to M4xx status.
Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.

(I now expect a whole bunch of post telling me I'm wrong, which rather would prove my point....)
No, you're right but equally the point of a "good" numbering system is it aids navigation without you needing to understand complex rules or historical minutae. The M45 leading into the A45 aided navigation in 1959 as well as adhered to the rules that had been laid down.

The M10 did similar, it was an important branch off the M1, in fact in the earliest days it was more important than the M1 as the A6/A1 route as was into London was better than the A41/A1 route.

This is why no one cares that the M48 and M49 are wrongly numbered - to the average punter they're motorways connected to the M4 and sound important enough to entice you onto them.

However there's no excuse for nonsense like there being two A6055 routes, or the B77, or B38. This is just lazy administration by people who DGAF about their work.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by James »

I have so much fun here in Spain watching some guy scream past me, then get stuck at the queue as they dont have a tag, while I just cruse through the VIA-T lane. Kind of dont get the logic of somebody that a) takes the toll road, b) speeds like crazy then c) waits in a queue as they wont pay for a tag
exiled wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 09:28
rhyds wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 09:16 Also, it would negate one of the really fun parts of using the M6T, the Wacky Races launch out of the tollbooths!
Having a toll tag on the autoroutes in France adds to that fun, as the French registered Audi that over took you a kilometre out realises after the barrier they are overtaking you, again.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Alderpoint wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 20:50 Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.

(I now expect a whole bunch of post telling me I'm wrong, which rather would prove my point....)
Now why do we not advertise the E-routes? In certain cases, they provide an altenative numbering system and unlike Britsh road numbers, follow routes rather than roads.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Chris Bertram »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 17:43
Alderpoint wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 20:50 Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.

(I now expect a whole bunch of post telling me I'm wrong, which rather would prove my point....)
Now why do we not advertise the E-routes? In certain cases, they provide an altenative numbering system and unlike Britsh road numbers, follow routes rather than roads.
Some variety of civil service gold-plating of the conditions and standards of the roads involved, I think. Combined with a dollop of "not invented here".
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 20:49
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 17:43
Alderpoint wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 20:50 Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.

(I now expect a whole bunch of post telling me I'm wrong, which rather would prove my point....)
Now why do we not advertise the E-routes? In certain cases, they provide an altenative numbering system and unlike Britsh road numbers, follow routes rather than roads.
Some variety of civil service gold-plating of the conditions and standards of the roads involved, I think. Combined with a dollop of "not invented here".
Also the view they're not actually helpful on an island. We had provision to sign them in the original Anderson Report and TSRGDs 1975 and 1981.

Likewise I'm not sure why Ireland has them signposted either other than perhaps to say "thanks for the cash". There's no navigational benefit whatsoever to having the E1 and E201 signed in Ireland.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Vierwielen »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 21:13
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 20:49
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 17:43
Now why do we not advertise the E-routes? In certain cases, they provide an altenative numbering system and unlike Britsh road numbers, follow routes rather than roads.
Some variety of civil service gold-plating of the conditions and standards of the roads involved, I think. Combined with a dollop of "not invented here".
Also the view they're not actually helpful on an island. We had provision to sign them in the original Anderson Report and TSRGDs 1975 and 1981.

Likewise I'm not sure why Ireland has them signposted either other than perhaps to say "thanks for the cash". There's no navigational benefit whatsoever to having the E1 and E201 signed in Ireland.
On the contrary. Our road numbering is London-oriented. The E-routes are useful for those people, particulary visitors from the Continent, who are seeking to by-pass London.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Bryn666 »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 21:27
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 21:13
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 20:49 Some variety of civil service gold-plating of the conditions and standards of the roads involved, I think. Combined with a dollop of "not invented here".
Also the view they're not actually helpful on an island. We had provision to sign them in the original Anderson Report and TSRGDs 1975 and 1981.

Likewise I'm not sure why Ireland has them signposted either other than perhaps to say "thanks for the cash". There's no navigational benefit whatsoever to having the E1 and E201 signed in Ireland.
On the contrary. Our road numbering is London-oriented. The E-routes are useful for those people, particulary visitors from the Continent, who are seeking to by-pass London.
Erm, the M25 does that? Likewise the A10 and A104 around Berlin and Paris respectively don't need to have or sign their E numbers because funnily enough people can follow the national ones...
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Alderpoint wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 20:50 Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.
I actually quite like a logical numbering system for navigating. For me, a bunch of numbers like A617, A46, A1, A14, M11 is easier for me to follow than having to remember Newark, Alconbury, Cambridge, Bishop's Stortford... plus which way I need to turn at each waypoint!

It's why I'm still a little iffy at navigating my way around Gothenburg. For a city that's bigger than Nottingham or Sheffield, the only numbered routes in the area are E6, E45, E20, and Highways 40 and 158. The swanky new Marieholm tunnel under the river doesn't even get a number! Nottingham certainly has a lot more than that. So quite often I'll be trying to find somewhere out of town and I'll be wondering whether or not the non-descript expressway is the Västerleden or Dag Hammarskjöldsleden - especially when the signage on both roads tell you it's going to some little town outside the municipality!

Of course, this isn't so much of an issue with Satnav, so maybe I'm not representative of that "vast majority of the population" (like, I'm not, ever... :D )
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Owain »

Alderpoint wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 20:50 Never understood the fascination (paranoia?) on here about road numbering - whether A-/B-roads or motorways. The vast majority of the population really don't care what a road is numbered, just that it quickly and efficiently gets them too their destination.

(I now expect a whole bunch of post telling me I'm wrong, which rather would prove my point....)
You're not wrong at all - the vast majority of road users have no interest in road numbers.... But then the vast majority of road users are not members of SABRE either, and certainly wouldn't describe themselves as 'road enthusiasts'!

It was probably the numbers (and the relationship of roads to cars and driving) that got me interested in roads in the first place. Everybody will have their own different reasons for the interest, and some of us happen to be interested in the numbers.

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 17:43 Now why do we not advertise the E-routes? In certain cases, they provide an altenative numbering system and unlike Britsh road numbers, follow routes rather than roads.
A fundamental aversion to anything 'European'... ? :stir: :devil:

Seriously, though, even I couldn't really see the point of signing them! I've never paid any attention to them when driving across the Continent.... Absolutely none whatsoever.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Big L »

Introduce signing of E routes now and lots of people would start screaming "BUT B WORD".
Make poetry history.

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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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ravenbluemoon wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 23:26 I actually quite like a logical numbering system for navigating. For me, a bunch of numbers like A617, A46, A1, A14, M11 is easier for me to follow than having to remember Newark, Alconbury, Cambridge, Bishop's Stortford... plus which way I need to turn at each waypoint!

It's why I'm still a little iffy at navigating my way around Gothenburg. For a city that's bigger than Nottingham or Sheffield, the only numbered routes in the area are E6, E45, E20, and Highways 40 and 158. The swanky new Marieholm tunnel under the river doesn't even get a number! Nottingham certainly has a lot more than that. So quite often I'll be trying to find somewhere out of town and I'll be wondering whether or not the non-descript expressway is the Västerleden or Dag Hammarskjöldsleden - especially when the signage on both roads tell you it's going to some little town outside the municipality!

Of course, this isn't so much of an issue with Satnav, so maybe I'm not representative of that "vast majority of the population" (like, I'm not, ever... :D )
Well I have a satnav but I still have my own system which consists of a pad of paper and pen with a list of waypoints and roads thus

A172 to Nunthorpe
A1043 to A171
A171 to Guisborough etc

Of course I also have a road atlas that proved invaluable in North Wales last summer finding my way around the roads they closed to build the Caernarfon bypass.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Chris Bertram »

Big L wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:30 Introduce signing of E routes now and lots of people would start screaming "BUT B WORD".
Even though E-routes are nothing to do with the EU (yes, I know you knew that already) but a subcommittee of the UN.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by KeithW »

Big L wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:30 Introduce signing of E routes now and lots of people would start screaming "BUT B WORD".
Which indicate their level of ignorance given the fact that the E Road is a UNECE initiative that predates the EU by decades.

Frankly introducing it would be no big deal , a few supplementary signs such as E5 or E15 would actually make sense and on route confirmation signs all that would be needed is a green sticker
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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KeithW wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:43
Big L wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:30 Introduce signing of E routes now and lots of people would start screaming "BUT B WORD".
Which indicate their level of ignorance given the fact that the E Road is a UNECE initiative that predates the EU by decades.

Frankly introducing it would be no big deal , a few supplementary signs such as E5 or E15 would actually make sense and on route confirmation signs all that would be needed is a green sticker
It was permitted between 1959 and 1994 but no one, even at the height of us being keen Europeans, saw any benefit. No one travelling to the UK is bothered about following the E13, they'll just follow M1. Even Google Maps doesn't bother to list the E routes that cross the UK.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:36
ravenbluemoon wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 23:26 I actually quite like a logical numbering system for navigating. For me, a bunch of numbers like A617, A46, A1, A14, M11 is easier for me to follow than having to remember Newark, Alconbury, Cambridge, Bishop's Stortford... plus which way I need to turn at each waypoint!

It's why I'm still a little iffy at navigating my way around Gothenburg. For a city that's bigger than Nottingham or Sheffield, the only numbered routes in the area are E6, E45, E20, and Highways 40 and 158. The swanky new Marieholm tunnel under the river doesn't even get a number! Nottingham certainly has a lot more than that. So quite often I'll be trying to find somewhere out of town and I'll be wondering whether or not the non-descript expressway is the Västerleden or Dag Hammarskjöldsleden - especially when the signage on both roads tell you it's going to some little town outside the municipality!

Of course, this isn't so much of an issue with Satnav, so maybe I'm not representative of that "vast majority of the population" (like, I'm not, ever... :D )
Well I have a satnav but I still have my own system which consists of a pad of paper and pen with a list of waypoints and roads thus

A172 to Nunthorpe
A1043 to A171
A171 to Guisborough etc

Of course I also have a road atlas that proved invaluable in North Wales last summer finding my way around the roads they closed to build the Caernarfon bypass.
Google maps can be OK at providing lists of turns along with the signs to follow. I think it possibly reads the signs in from Google Street View. A hyper-simplified navigation system which produced lists of directions like "follow A702 south for 50 miles then A74(M) south (Carlisle)" would be quite nice for long distance travel and much preferable to a big list of well-signed roundabouts/forks where your onward route is obvious. Of course it would require quite a lot of intelligence to understand the details of interchanges to avoid going "follow A702 then unnamed road then unnamed road then A75(M)" and good knowledge of signage on the ground.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Chris5156 »

Big L wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:30 Introduce signing of E routes now and lots of people would start screaming "BUT B WORD".
We have B roads for them to follow :wink:
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