The M6 Toll is an abomination

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James
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by James »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 23:21 "If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there though.

We don't number routes on hypothetical lorry journeys that surely comprise less than 1% of trips, they are allocated on national importance between major centres of population and ports.

The E network is designed as an administrator's exercise to determine funding for general corridor improvements. It is not and has never been designed to aid navigation as barely any of the countries the network spans sign it apart from on route confirmation signs which are generally after decision points.

Having routes like E13 remain entirely in the UK and on one road (M1) is exactly why we don't bother signing them. Who exactly is that helping?

And your argument falls completely flat on the secondary routes like E402 and E403 which never leave France or Belgium respectively. One is relegated to cartouches on RCS panels and the other replaces a national number but neither facilitate international travel since they never leave their respective countries.
I tend to disagree. For most people doing normal driving, which includes more then 99.9% of what I do, I agree the numbers are meaningless. However (where I live near Gibraltar) being able to follow the E-5 is very good for going north and back towards the UK (apart from the last section to Calais) where I end up on the E-15 which is another road I use regularly via the A-7. So they do make certain sense if you're doing long distance driving.

My only bugbear is the A-5 out of Algeciras follows the largely S2 N-340 road, and ignores the much more direct, newer and motorway standard A-381 route directly North. Even the signs for Cadiz still send you the old way despite being further and much slower (but its Spain...)
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Owain »

djw1981 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 17:21
Steven wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 09:29
Gav wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 09:06 sorry but the A73 quote.... The M73 is a replacement - check the map.
Check the Scottish National Archives where the official documents discussing such things are held.

It gained the M73 number as a "least worst" fit, and in early Scottish Office documentation where all other motorways are shown with their equivalent A roads, the M73 is labelled with an asterisk. However, its nearest parallel A-road is actually the A752.

Compare against the other Scottish motorways where you would have previously used the A8 for the Edinburgh - Greenock for which you'd now use the M8; the A9 for an Edinburgh - Dunblane journey, the A90 for Edinburgh - Perth, the A80 for Glasgow - Stirling, and the A74 to the south. Absolutely no-one would have ever have used the A73 to go from Uddingston to Mollinsburn.

The A73 and M73 perform completely different jobs. One is a Glasgow eastern bypass, the other joins a number of central belt towns together. Unless you're suggesting that the M73 somehow serves, say, Airdrie?
It can certainly be argued that both serve North to South trans-Lanarkshire traffic rather than M73 being a Glasgow bypass; I guess a question is whether pre M73 traffic from Highlands to Englands went down A80 into Glasgow then back out down A74, or whether it left 74 at Abington and went via A73 to Auchenkilns in which case M73 could be argued to be a functional replacement? I know many Lanarkshire people see M73 as a lanarkshire bypass when constructed, though now it certainly works with M74 as a bypass of Glasgow City centre.
One of the great things about Leeds is how easy it is to get to Scotland. If the M73 didn't exist, I'd never consider A65/66-M6-Route 74-M73 as a route to the Highlands, as A1-M90 would be the obvious choice.

It's funny how much difference such a short road can make! Would I still use it if it had a toll on it? Possibly.
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From the SABRE Wiki: A752 :


The A752 is a relatively short non-primary road linking the A721 at Thorniewood to the A80 at Muirhead. It shadows the M73 for almost its entire length.


The route begins at a signalised crossroads (the fourth arm is a small cul-de-sac) on the A721 in Uddingston. The junction is very close to, but not connected with, the M74, which is most easily accessed by heading west along the A721. It heads north along Holkmbrae Road, a suburban road where most of the

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Graham
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Graham »

jnty wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:22 The E5 feels like perhaps the most useful GB mainland E-route going - it feels like it describes a very useful continuous 'backbone' route which incorporates a lot of road numbers (the A/M74/M6 thing doesn't help with this).
I can't help but wonder, though, how many people drive the whole length of the E5 even within France. Going south from Le Havre towards Spain, taking the A28 though Le Mans is surely head and shoulders above going into Paris and out again (as the E5 does).
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Vierwielen »

Graham wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 16:47
jnty wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:22 The E5 feels like perhaps the most useful GB mainland E-route going - it feels like it describes a very useful continuous 'backbone' route which incorporates a lot of road numbers (the A/M74/M6 thing doesn't help with this).
I can't help but wonder, though, how many people drive the whole length of the E5 even within France. Going south from Le Havre towards Spain, taking the A28 though Le Mans is surely head and shoulders above going into Paris and out again (as the E5 does).
But if your routes takes you near Paris (for example Le Harve to Merseilles) theh it makes sense to follow the E5 around Paris - fewer road numbers to remember.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Vierwielen wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 17:38
Graham wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 16:47
jnty wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:22 The E5 feels like perhaps the most useful GB mainland E-route going - it feels like it describes a very useful continuous 'backbone' route which incorporates a lot of road numbers (the A/M74/M6 thing doesn't help with this).
I can't help but wonder, though, how many people drive the whole length of the E5 even within France. Going south from Le Havre towards Spain, taking the A28 though Le Mans is surely head and shoulders above going into Paris and out again (as the E5 does).
But if your routes takes you near Paris (for example Le Harve to Merseilles) theh it makes sense to follow the E5 around Paris - fewer road numbers to remember.
If you are heading to Marseille from Le Havre it would only follow the A13 to Paris, then you'd need the E15 south and that is where the problem comes in if you are following just the numbers as both the autoroutes du Nord and du Soleil, the A1 and A6/7 are the E15 someone unfamiliar with French geography could head off in the wrong direction.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Andy P »

Vierwielen wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 22:16 If you were travelling from Copenhagen to Prague, part of your route would be Rostock-Berlin-Dresden. According to ViaMichelin, you could follow the E-55 through Germany or follow the A19-A24-A10-A13-A4-A17. Both will take you along the same route.
You could follow the E55 through Germany, but not if you are relying on route numbers for navigation.

Somewhat strangely in my opinion, Germany only uses E numbers on RCSs, and not on direction signs, so you can't follow them at decision points.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Andy P wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 18:58
Vierwielen wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 22:16 If you were travelling from Copenhagen to Prague, part of your route would be Rostock-Berlin-Dresden. According to ViaMichelin, you could follow the E-55 through Germany or follow the A19-A24-A10-A13-A4-A17. Both will take you along the same route.
You could follow the E55 through Germany, but not if you are relying on route numbers for navigation.

Somewhat strangely in my opinion, Germany only uses E numbers on RCSs, and not on direction signs, so you can't follow them at decision points.
France is similar.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 16:05
I've never quite understood the Belgian insistence on replacing national numbers with E ones - E411 sounds a lot less important a route than A4 does - given 3 digit E routes don't tend to leave individual countries anyway it's even more pointless. Like does anyone really care that the E402 runs down the west side of France?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... orways.png this is old now, from 2014, but it does show the real reason for the E network - filling those gaps.
Another aspect of Belgium's use of E-road numbers is they are used for the motorway network only. The E46 runs from Cherbourg in Normandy to Liege. It is marked on the signs in France both route nationale and autoroutes, as far as the border. Cross the border into the Kingdom of Belgium and the E46 disappears to become the N89.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Tinpusher »

Lovely tangent thread here :)

The M6 Toll naming, does exactly what it needs to do for non road enthusiasts. Let's you know that it is the toll varient of the M6 and thus you'd expect it to help you avoid Birmingham and the Black country congestion which, it does admirably.

Was always my guilty pleasure when travelling to visit parents when they lived in Shropshire. Eyes on for traffic cops (looking for high vis wearers in any car to check for police) then zoom and enjoy autobahn like joy when younger in a new turbo diesel. I didn't think it was an abomination then, and viewed the toll as an entrance fee to participate, rather like the Nurburgring, only cheaper. Obvs do not endorse this behaviour and have grown up now.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by pjr10th »

Here's what I would propose:

M6 should extend the current M40, along the M6 Toll, and all the way up to M8 junction of M74.

I would then renumber the current M6/A14/M11 to M11, upgrading the rest to Special Road status. If that's not possible, renumbering the current A14 to A14(M) and the current [Edit:] M6 (M1 -> M42) as A14(M).

Then renumber the existing M6 through Brum. Options include splitting in two to M5 and M42 (other numbers available). Renumbering the whole thing M42. Renumbering the thing as the A14(M), possibly up to the M5. Renumbering the whole thing M58 or renumbering it to a new number which fits with zone.

The old M6 through Birmingham would be signed as the toll-free alternative to the M6 (Toll).

This would encourage people just following the M6 route onto the toll road away from the city centre, while the rest of the motorists still have the choice, but it's clear that the M6 (Toll) is the official route.
Last edited by pjr10th on Mon May 23, 2022 17:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by KeithW »

pjr10th wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 23:27 Here's what I would propose:

M6 should extend the current M40, along the M6 Toll, and all the way up to M8 junction of M74.

I would then renumber the current M6/A14/M11 to M11, upgrading the rest to Special Road status. If that's not possible, renumbering the current A14 to A14(M) and the current A6 (M1 -> M42) as A14(M).

Then renumber the existing M6 through Brum. Options include splitting in two to M5 and M42 (other numbers available). Renumbering the whole thing M42. Renumbering the thing as the A14(M), possibly up to the M5. Renumbering the whole thing M58 or renumbering it to a new number which fits with zone.

The old M6 through Birmingham would be signed as the toll-free alternative to the M6 (Toll).

This would encourage people just following the M6 route onto the toll road away from the city centre, while the rest of the motorists still have the choice, but it's clear that the M6 (Toll) is the official route.
Roads north of the border are the responsibility of the Scottish Government and I doubt they are amenable to the change you suggest.

In the case of the M6 Toll all you need to do is buy it, I believe the sale price in 2017 was approx £2 billion

The old M6 is signed as M6 and is known to be toll free. It does NOT go through the city centre but passes to the east and north of the city alongside the canal and railway through what was a decaying industrial area. As is common the city has expanded as housing, shopping, distribution centres are built near the motorway. I still expect to see Fort Dunlop as a tyre factory.
Image


Spaghetti Junction now
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.51029 ... 3678?hl=en

Old Spaghetti Junction - I worked in a factory underneath it in the early 1980's
Image

The HP Sauce factory was just down the road.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/birmingham/ ... 419973.stm

Of course you would likely need very deep pockets to upgrade the entire A14 to motorway status and I doubt there is enough money in the country to upgrade the A6 to motorway even if it were desirable

A6 Loughborough
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.76702 ... 8192?hl=en

A6 Shap
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52726 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by pjr10th »

KeithW wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 09:48
pjr10th wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 23:27 Here's what I would propose:

M6 should extend the current M40, along the M6 Toll, and all the way up to M8 junction of M74.

I would then renumber the current M6/A14/M11 to M11, upgrading the rest to Special Road status. If that's not possible, renumbering the current A14 to A14(M) and the current A6 (M1 -> M42) as A14(M).

Then renumber the existing M6 through Brum. Options include splitting in two to M5 and M42 (other numbers available). Renumbering the whole thing M42. Renumbering the thing as the A14(M), possibly up to the M5. Renumbering the whole thing M58 or renumbering it to a new number which fits with zone.

The old M6 through Birmingham would be signed as the toll-free alternative to the M6 (Toll).

This would encourage people just following the M6 route onto the toll road away from the city centre, while the rest of the motorists still have the choice, but it's clear that the M6 (Toll) is the official route.
Roads north of the border are the responsibility of the Scottish Government and I doubt they are amenable to the change you suggest.

In the case of the M6 Toll all you need to do is buy it, I believe the sale price in 2017 was approx £2 billion

The old M6 is signed as M6 and is known to be toll free. It does NOT go through the city centre but passes to the east and north of the city alongside the canal and railway through what was a decaying industrial area. As is common the city has expanded as housing, shopping, distribution centres are built near the motorway. I still expect to see Fort Dunlop as a tyre factory.
Image


Spaghetti Junction now
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.51029 ... 3678?hl=en

Old Spaghetti Junction - I worked in a factory underneath it in the early 1980's
Image

The HP Sauce factory was just down the road.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/birmingham/ ... 419973.stm

Of course you would likely need very deep pockets to upgrade the entire A14 to motorway status and I doubt there is enough money in the country to upgrade the A6 to motorway even if it were desirable

A6 Loughborough
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.76702 ... 8192?hl=en

A6 Shap
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52726 ... 8192?hl=en
I wasn't talking about what one agency or one company should do, just what should be done in general. I know of course England and Scotland have different highways agencies.

The current M6 does go through the centre of the West Midlands conurbation (I was colloquialising that to the city centre). Especially compared to the M6 Toll.

There's no reason a private road couldn't have the M6 designation.

Agreed it would be ridiculous to upgrade the A6 route, not sure why you would in the first place though as the M1 bypasses it already.

The A14 Huntingdon could be upgraded to motorway status fairly easily. The A14 between the A1 and M1 is admittedly a bit harder, needing an extra lane both ways and emergency Lay-bys. and a parallel route constructed for non-motorway traffic of course. Could be economically beneficial in light of the "Midlands Engine". Also providing a motorway bypass of the M25 Northern section for Northern bound traffic.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by KeithW »

pjr10th wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 00:59
I wasn't talking about what one agency or one company should do, just what should be done in general. I know of course England and Scotland have different highways agencies.

The current M6 does go through the centre of the West Midlands conurbation (I was colloquialising that to the city centre). Especially compared to the M6 Toll.

There's no reason a private road couldn't have the M6 designation.

Agreed it would be ridiculous to upgrade the A6 route, not sure why you would in the first place though as the M1 bypasses it already.

The A14 Huntingdon could be upgraded to motorway status fairly easily. The A14 between the A1 and M1 is admittedly a bit harder, needing an extra lane both ways and emergency Lay-bys. and a parallel route constructed for non-motorway traffic of course. Could be economically beneficial in light of the "Midlands Engine". Also providing a motorway bypass of the M25 Northern section for Northern bound traffic.
The West Midland Conurbation is a very vague definition but the early motorway planners were thinking in terms of general routing such as the London to Yorkshire Motorway (M1) , London to Birmingham (M45) London to Dover (M2), London to Wales (M4) , London to Carlisle (M6) etc. In fact the original intent for Birmingham was M1/M45 which is why both were built at the same time and connect to the A45 which was the old main route to Coventry and Birmingham.

You introduced the A6 so that isn't my problem but parts of it have of course been upgraded to D2 as have parts of the A5 for that matter. The A6 was never really a through route, more a bunch of loosely connected local roads of variable quality. I doubt any one except an enthusiast ever drove to Scotland along the whole length of the A6. Typically pre M6 from London you would have taken the A5 passing Birmingham to the north close to the route of the M6 toll or used the A1/A66/A6 over Shap. Both routes I have travelled by motorcycle and car. I don't recommend Shap in winter, its bad enough in summer.

It is quite inaccurate to say the A14 could simply be upgraded to Motorway. By definition a motorway is a limited access road so if you do such an upgrade you need to provide a suitable alternative route for non motorised traffic. In the case of the A1 through North Yorkshire that was done by upgrading off line and making the old A1 the Local Access Road. As an all purpose road widening the last section of the A14 would attract far less opposition than adding blue signs especially were it crosses the old Bosworth Battlefield. The protests and legal action delayed it approval by over a decade, widening the road and providing an LAR would be a costly and prolonged process. I seriously doubt National Highways would even consider it. At most I suspect the next major improvement will be to the Cambridge northern bypass and the A10 junction which is seriously overloaded.

As an aside the A14 no longer goes via Huntingdon it cuts across the A1 to the south.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by Truvelo »

A14 between M1 and A1 is a straightforward if costly upgrade. The closely spaced junctions around Kettering means separate carriageways will need adding for local traffic. I drew this around 15 years ago. Some development has since taken place along parts of it so it will no longer be possible to built it identical but something similar is still possible if the will is there. Judging by the Lower Thames Crossing proposals the junctions shown here aren't that unrealistic.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by pjr10th »

KeithW wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:38
pjr10th wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 00:59
I wasn't talking about what one agency or one company should do, just what should be done in general. I know of course England and Scotland have different highways agencies.

The current M6 does go through the centre of the West Midlands conurbation (I was colloquialising that to the city centre). Especially compared to the M6 Toll.

There's no reason a private road couldn't have the M6 designation.

Agreed it would be ridiculous to upgrade the A6 route, not sure why you would in the first place though as the M1 bypasses it already.

The A14 Huntingdon could be upgraded to motorway status fairly easily. The A14 between the A1 and M1 is admittedly a bit harder, needing an extra lane both ways and emergency Lay-bys. and a parallel route constructed for non-motorway traffic of course. Could be economically beneficial in light of the "Midlands Engine". Also providing a motorway bypass of the M25 Northern section for Northern bound traffic.
The West Midland Conurbation is a very vague definition but the early motorway planners were thinking in terms of general routing such as the London to Yorkshire Motorway (M1) , London to Birmingham (M45) London to Dover (M2), London to Wales (M4) , London to Carlisle (M6) etc. In fact the original intent for Birmingham was M1/M45 which is why both were built at the same time and connect to the A45 which was the old main route to Coventry and Birmingham.

You introduced the A6 so that isn't my problem but parts of it have of course been upgraded to D2 as have parts of the A5 for that matter. The A6 was never really a through route, more a bunch of loosely connected local roads of variable quality. I doubt any one except an enthusiast ever drove to Scotland along the whole length of the A6. Typically pre M6 from London you would have taken the A5 passing Birmingham to the north close to the route of the M6 toll or used the A1/A66/A6 over Shap. Both routes I have travelled by motorcycle and car. I don't recommend Shap in winter, its bad enough in summer.
Apologies. It was a typo in my post. M6.

It is quite inaccurate to say the A14 could simply be upgraded to Motorway. By definition a motorway is a limited access road so if you do such an upgrade you need to provide a suitable alternative route for non motorised traffic. In the case of the A1 through North Yorkshire that was done by upgrading off line and making the old A1 the Local Access Road. As an all purpose road widening the last section of the A14 would attract far less opposition than adding blue signs especially were it crosses the old Bosworth Battlefield. The protests and legal action delayed it approval by over a decade, widening the road and providing an LAR would be a costly and prolonged process. I seriously doubt National Highways would even consider it. At most I suspect the next major improvement will be to the Cambridge northern bypass and the A10 junction which is seriously overloaded.

As an aside the A14 no longer goes via Huntingdon it cuts across the A1 to the south.
"A14 Huntingdon" meant the new bit around Huntingdonshire. I don't doubt it isn't a priority, but it should be done, particularly for safety reasons, is my point. It doesn't need to be D3M. Just restricted D3 a la the new A14 or D2M (if they don't want to smartify).
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by pjr10th »

Truvelo wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 16:08 A14 between M1 and A1 is a straightforward if costly upgrade. The closely spaced junctions around Kettering means separate carriageways will need adding for local traffic. I drew this around 15 years ago. Some development has since taken place along parts of it so it will no longer be possible to built it identical but something similar is still possible if the will is there. Judging by the Lower Thames Crossing proposals the junctions shown here aren't that unrealistic.
Yes, something like this is what I had in mind, called the A14(M) or M11 and built to the standards of the new A14 Huntingdon bypass.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by KeithW »

pjr10th wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 17:14 "A14 Huntingdon" meant the new bit around Huntingdonshire. I don't doubt it isn't a priority, but it should be done, particularly for safety reasons, is my point. It doesn't need to be D3M. Just restricted D3 a la the new A14 or D2M (if they don't want to smartify).
On safety grounds all that needs to be done is fix the dodgy junctions between Brampton Hut and Thrapston but if you want to restrict traffic to Class 1 and 3 you will need to add a LAR.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by KeithW »

pjr10th wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 17:16
Truvelo wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 16:08 A14 between M1 and A1 is a straightforward if costly upgrade. The closely spaced junctions around Kettering means separate carriageways will need adding for local traffic. I drew this around 15 years ago. Some development has since taken place along parts of it so it will no longer be possible to built it identical but something similar is still possible if the will is there. Judging by the Lower Thames Crossing proposals the junctions shown here aren't that unrealistic.
Yes, something like this is what I had in mind, called the A14(M) or M11 and built to the standards of the new A14 Huntingdon bypass.

Well that cost £1.5 billion as I recall and with traffic flows about half of that between Cambridge and the A1 it looks unlikely to be approved so dont hold your breath, quite simply there are higher priorities such as the A1 between Biggleswade and Buckden.

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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.13577 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by xnx »

My issue with the M6 Toll is due to where the toll booths are, it can be full fare from say joining the A5/A38 south.

When the M6 Toll was built, there were new roundabouts on the detrunked A38 with a 60mph specs further up and the A5 being a slower crawl that it ever was with extra traffic lights/lower speeds to encourage the M6 Toll.

With limited space in the UK, it may be reasonable to either lower the toll costs for cars or it becomes part cost (like section on Ireland M50) or fully free with a buyback if it ever gets offered for sale.
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Re: The M6 Toll is an abomination

Post by fras »

The tolling arrangements on the M6 Toll are perverse for persons joining intermediately, but I suppose most people are going its full length. At one time the intermediate toll plazas were manned, but traffic was so light they are now all card-only. Most people soon worked out how bad the value was if joining intermediately so traffic virtually disappeared.
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