Ringroads without TOTSOs

[NICK 647063]

I think you will struggle to find any completely grade separated complete ring roads, the reason is because at some point the bulk of the traffic leaves and nothing ever needs to go fully around!

An example the Leeds inner ring road isn’t even an official complete ring, the council states it is via a number of roads including the M621 yet the only part that is even labelled on a map is the A58(M) and A64(M), with the bulk of the traffic then continuing up the A64, a point which is proved now as the link from the inner ring road A64(M) to Marsh lane which is apparently the inner ring road has been completely closed for 2 years, which basically shows how little the ring road connection matters….

Even looking at the M25 it can’t even complete a ring!

[Bryn666]

I think you will struggle to find any completely grade separated complete ring roads, the reason is because at some point the bulk of the traffic leaves and nothing ever needs to go fully around!

An example the Leeds inner ring road isn’t even an official complete ring, the council states it is via a number of roads including the M621 yet the only part that is even labelled on a map is the A58(M) and A64(M), with the bulk of the traffic then continuing up the A64, a point which is proved now as the link from the inner ring road A64(M) to Marsh lane which is apparently the inner ring road has been completely closed for 2 years, which basically shows how little the ring road connection matters….

Even looking at the M25 it can’t even complete a ring!

The Boulevard Périphérique around Paris says hello

[owen b]

I'd like to do a lap of the A888 on Barra one day.

[Owain]

The A90 around Rome.

And, oh so close....

[Bryn666]

The A90 around Rome.

And, oh so close....

What's the story with that?

On a similar vein - I remember this being finished around 20 years back... https://www.google.com/maps/@48.8664293 ... 4.5z?hl=en - you can do endless laps of Disneyland Paris now.

[Owain]

The A90 around Rome.

And, oh so close....

What's the story with that?

I don't know, but I first spotted it in my long-lost* Touring Club Italiano road atlas of Italy. It's a surefire bet that the Fascists had something to do with it.

*Ex-wife threw it out. Hence divorce.

Oops, found another one!

[Keiji]

I think you will struggle to find any completely grade separated complete ring roads, the reason is because at some point the bulk of the traffic leaves and nothing ever needs to go fully around!

I disagree.

The point of a ring road is to distribute traffic belonging to a large number of common routes, which will naturally enter and exit at different points.

If the ring road is small enough, then yes, you are likely to end up with traffic weighted heavily on one part of it and not on another, and then it would generally be better to not make it a full ring but instead something more like York's teardrop shape for exactly the reason you give.

But as the ring road grows in diameter, the traffic becomes more evenly distributed. The M25 only isn't a full ring because of Sevenoaks, and the M60 only isn't a full ring because of the northeast (and maybe southeast) corner(s); in these cases, that's hardly a deliberate design decision but an unfortunate side effect of how those roads were patched together til they were "good enough". From the point of view of "where is traffic going", they'd make more sense as full rings.

[Owain]

I think you will struggle to find any completely grade separated complete ring roads, the reason is because at some point the bulk of the traffic leaves and nothing ever needs to go fully around!

I disagree.

The point of a ring road is to distribute traffic belonging to a large number of common routes, which will naturally enter and exit at different points.

If the ring road is small enough, then yes, you are likely to end up with traffic weighted heavily on one part of it and not on another, and then it would generally be better to not make it a full ring but instead something more like York's teardrop shape for exactly the reason you give.

But as the ring road grows in diameter, the traffic becomes more evenly distributed. The M25 only isn't a full ring because of Sevenoaks, and the M60 only isn't a full ring because of the northeast (and maybe southeast) corner(s); in these cases, that's hardly a deliberate design decision but an unfortunate side effect of how those roads were patched together til they were "good enough". From the point of view of "where is traffic going", they'd make more sense as full rings.

The M25 wouldn't be a full ring anyway - irrespective of Sevenoaks - because the Dartford Crossing and Tunnel are the A282.

The M60 carriageways are continuous at Bredbury (the south-east corner), because the on-slip from the A560 can be considered an offside merge - it has just one lane, joining the D3M of the M60. At Simister (the north-east corner), there is a need for freeflow, but I don't think there would be much benefit to making the M60 a full ring there because the vast majority of traffic passing through the junction does so on the main line between the M60's northern section and the M62. A freeflow solution would probably be better off keeping the M60-M62 and M60-M66 main lines as they are.

[Keiji]

The M25 wouldn't be a full ring anyway - irrespective of Sevenoaks - because the Dartford Crossing and Tunnel are the A282.

Oh, absolutely. I think on here we're all well aware of what happens at Dartford, and I was disregarding that intentionally and going purely on the geometry of the road. The fact it stops being a motorway and changes its number for a short stretch doesn't change the fact that you can hug the central reservation all the way round (except at Sevenoaks), and while you could argue the traffic light arrangement for escorted loads is an interruption, you could also say that getting a red light or being diverted there is in the same category as coming across roadworks or a police incident that could happen anywhere...

The M60 carriageways are continuous at Bredbury (the south-east corner), because the on-slip from the A560 can be considered an offside merge - it has just one lane, joining the D3M of the M60.

Hence why I put that one as a "maybe". Even so, when counted as an offside merge, it does affect the main carriageway enough to give a tight bend with a restricted speed limit as a consequence.

At Simister (the north-east corner), there is a need for freeflow, but I don't think there would be much benefit to making the M60 a full ring there because the vast majority of traffic passing through the junction does so on the main line between the M60's northern section and the M62. A freeflow solution would probably be better off keeping the M60-M62 and M60-M66 main lines as they are.

Ah, that is true, certainly in the M60-M62 case. The effect of multiplexing a national east-west motorway with your ring road!

[Steven]

The M60 carriageways are continuous at Bredbury (the south-east corner), because the on-slip from the A560 can be considered an offside merge - it has just one lane, joining the D3M of the M60.

Well....

It is designed as a TOTSO for the A6(M) - the A6(M) (Bredbury - Hazel Grove) version - so it clearly counts as exactly that!

It's also worth remembering that the now-M60 was not originally designed as a ring; even if the missing parts of Simiter were there which would improve things, the former M63 through Stockport was not originally part of the ring.

[Owain]

The M60 carriageways are continuous at Bredbury (the south-east corner), because the on-slip from the A560 can be considered an offside merge - it has just one lane, joining the D3M of the M60.

Well....

It is designed as a TOTSO for the A6(M) - the A6(M) (Bredbury - Hazel Grove) version - so it clearly counts as exactly that!

It's also worth remembering that the now-M60 was not originally designed as a ring; even if the missing parts of Simiter were there which would improve things, the former M63 through Stockport was not originally part of the ring.

I'm aware of that - the point I'm making is that because they never built all of it, you don't actually have to 'turn off to stay on'; you just stay on!

[agc2070]

Ashford used to have a ring road that was entirely the A292 and could be driven round in a loop endlessly. However, it was removed in 2007.

I videoed this one in the late nineties. Note, the first and last part of the video is the approach from the south as I thought it would be more interesting than going round again! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt0OhQFLmic

[c2R]

Huddersfield is close, but has a roundabout on it... How about Watford or Huntingdon?

[Ben302]

Ashford used to have a ring road that was entirely the A292 and could be driven round in a loop endlessly. However, it was removed in 2007.

Chatham used to have one of those too, it used be driven in one go (only interrupted by 3 signal controlled junctions), If you got a green wave you could "lap" it in a few minutes. Chatham's like Ashford's used to attract the street racers too.

[trickstat]

Huddersfield is close, but has a roundabout on it... How about Watford or Huntingdon?

Does Watford have a ring road?

[Chris5156]

Huddersfield is close, but has a roundabout on it... How about Watford or Huntingdon?

Does Watford have a ring road?

Certainly does, a one-way racetrack of a ring road. And not a totso in sight!

[trickstat]

Huddersfield is close, but has a roundabout on it... How about Watford or Huntingdon?

Does Watford have a ring road?

Certainly does, a one-way racetrack of a ring road. And not a totso in sight!

For me, that's a one way system and not a ring road.

[Herned]

It was specifically built as a ring road, almost none of it uses pre-existing roads.

[trickstat]

It was specifically built as a ring road, almost none of it uses pre-existing roads.

Yes, but because it is only one way it is not the kind of road I think of when I think of ring roads. It is a one-way system for Watford town centre not a ring road for the whole of the town in the sense of those in places like Leicester and Nottingham.

[Steven]

It was specifically built as a ring road, almost none of it uses pre-existing roads.

Yes, but because it is only one way it is not the kind of road I think of when I think of ring roads. It is a one-way system for Watford town centre not a ring road for the whole of the town in the sense of those in places like Leicester and Nottingham.

That sounds like a confusion between Outer Ring Roads and Inner Ring Roads, which are different beasts with different functions. Both cities mentioned happen to have both types of Ring Road, but Nottingham's IRR isn't really functional as an inner ring any more.