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Herned wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 10:48
It was specifically built as a ring road, almost none of it uses pre-existing roads.
Yes, but because it is only one way it is not the kind of road I think of when I think of ring roads. It is a one-way system for Watford town centre not a ring road for the whole of the town in the sense of those in places like Leicester and Nottingham.
That sounds like a confusion between Outer Ring Roads and Inner Ring Roads, which are different beasts with different functions. Both cities mentioned happen to have both types of Ring Road, but Nottingham's IRR isn't really functional as an inner ring any more.
That's largely because they have made most of what was the IRR buses only.
If you wanted to do an "inner ring road" around the city centre now, starting at the BBC centre, you'd head south on the A60, turn right at Hooters onto Queens Road, follow this to the A453, turn right onto Wilford St, head up Maid Marian Way, then go in on Parliament St, past the theatre and NTU campus, onto Shakespeare St, then up Mansfield Road, onto Woodborough Road, then down Huntingdon St following the A60 back to the BBC island. Barring the odd bit of 1-way system on the East side then it works largely the other way too.
Neither that, nor the pre-2002 Parliament St/Canal St/Maid Marian Way (largely speaking) loop qualify as "without TOTSOs" though no matter how that' concept is defined.
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.
Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Internationally, Caen comes ever-so-close. The N814 is grade-separated throughout, makes a fairly-circular shape. It does unfortunately have one TOTSO at its north-western corner, although as this is via grade-separated slip roads you could if you wanted continue round and round the city for as a long as you like without stopping.
--
In-fact, looking at that TOTSO, it does form a full circle clockwise. At the TOTSO two lanes continue to the right and one lane diverges to the left, so the 'mainline' is the ringroad. Those lanes do though then drop to one and have to cédez le passage to traffic coming from the N13.
Rob590 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 10:14
Internationally, Caen comes ever-so-close. The N814 is grade-separated throughout, makes a fairly-circular shape. It does unfortunately have one TOTSO at its north-western corner, although as this is via grade-separated slip roads you could if you wanted continue round and round the city for as a long as you like without stopping.
--
In-fact, looking at that TOTSO, it does form a full circle clockwise. At the TOTSO two lanes continue to the right and one lane diverges to the left, so the 'mainline' is the ringroad. Those lanes do though then drop to one and have to cédez le passage to traffic coming from the N13.
Yes, it's a strange junction there but almost allows a continual loop. Not as pure as Paris of course. Bordeaux is a near miss too with only the NE corner being a TOTSO because it freeflows onto the A10. Likewise Rennes does the same but with the road in from the A81. Oh, and Nantes, this time with the A11. Must be a French thing.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
How about Oxford? It's not complete* and it's far from free-flow with very limited grade separation but IIRC at every junction the ring road is basically straight on.
trickstat wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 10:55
How about Oxford? It's not complete* and it's far from free-flow with very limited grade separation but IIRC at every junction the ring road is basically straight on.
*I'm not counting the A34 as part of it.
If our ring roads don't have to be "complete" the A720 Edinburgh Bypass counts too - straight on at the only roundabout and you're grand from start to finish. I might be stretching that relaxation of the rules a bit much though!
For me, that's a one way system and not a ring road.
For me a one way system is a collection of streets that have been changed to one-way working to make them more efficient. Watford's ring road isn't a collection of existing streets, it's purpose built, and it was designed to be a ring road. It is also signposted as one. To me that's not a one way system!
Rob590 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 10:14
Internationally, Caen comes ever-so-close. The N814 is grade-separated throughout, makes a fairly-circular shape. It does unfortunately have one TOTSO at its north-western corner, although as this is via grade-separated slip roads you could if you wanted continue round and round the city for as a long as you like without stopping.
--
In-fact, looking at that TOTSO, it does form a full circle clockwise. At the TOTSO two lanes continue to the right and one lane diverges to the left, so the 'mainline' is the ringroad. Those lanes do though then drop to one and have to cédez le passage to traffic coming from the N13.
Yes, it's a strange junction there but almost allows a continual loop. Not as pure as Paris of course. Bordeaux is a near miss too with only the NE corner being a TOTSO because it freeflows onto the A10. Likewise Rennes does the same but with the road in from the A81. Oh, and Nantes, this time with the A11. Must be a French thing.
I do get the feeling with the Caen BP that it is about directing traffic to take the southern half, both coming from Bayeux on the N13 or the A13 at Mondeville.
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Rob590 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 10:14
Internationally, Caen comes ever-so-close. The N814 is grade-separated throughout, makes a fairly-circular shape. It does unfortunately have one TOTSO at its north-western corner, although as this is via grade-separated slip roads you could if you wanted continue round and round the city for as a long as you like without stopping.
--
In-fact, looking at that TOTSO, it does form a full circle clockwise. At the TOTSO two lanes continue to the right and one lane diverges to the left, so the 'mainline' is the ringroad. Those lanes do though then drop to one and have to cédez le passage to traffic coming from the N13.
Yes, it's a strange junction there but almost allows a continual loop. Not as pure as Paris of course. Bordeaux is a near miss too with only the NE corner being a TOTSO because it freeflows onto the A10. Likewise Rennes does the same but with the road in from the A81. Oh, and Nantes, this time with the A11. Must be a French thing.
I do get the feeling with the Caen BP that it is about directing traffic to take the southern half, both coming from Bayeux on the N13 or the A13 at Mondeville.
That's due to the bottleneck that is the Viaduc de Calix, prior to 1997ish you only had the top half of the ring.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 22:02
That's due to the bottleneck that is the Viaduc de Calix, prior to 1997ish you only had the top half of the ring.
Plus some of its junctions such as Chemin Vert show its age.
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I think our struggle is really defining what a TOSTO is.
For simple priority junctions, it's mostly obvious. If you interact with the minor road, you've TOSTOd. But even then there's fringe cases such as if the main road becomes no entry so you're forced into turning off, but you're basically still travelling ahead.
But it's more difficult for roundabouts. Do you define it as if you go anywhere other than between 10:30 and 1:30? What about a situation where the road is clearly defining a priority route through. Like here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/L7vHF6SBmEYv1Mve9 where you're directed that the right turn is the major route, or the continuation of this road.
And at signal junctions which aren't standard crossroads. Like this one, where either route could be construed as the continuation. https://maps.app.goo.gl/8rtvPVxw1YpAYsMB7
What if you need to change lanes to keep going after a merge point, but you're definitely not turning off the road you're on. https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZ5ziGuaD6wH5dBd6
I'm pretty sure that if the Darlington inner ring road was completed it would be free of TOTSOs (and even in the incomplete current state it still has none, unless you count the slight left where you can't use the far outside lane to continue on the A167 at the B6279 junction as a TOTSO)