M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by M4Simon »

c2R wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 07:35
M4Simon wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 06:35
That was the creation of a new motorway out of bits of old motorway, just as the M48 was created out of bits of the M4 and part of the M621 used to be the M1. My example of M4 J23 was the renumbering of an existing junction on an existing motorway to a different number on the same motorway. I can't think of another place where that has happened.
This might not quite be the same either, but:

The M42 was extended and junctions were renumbered on the existing motorway, i.e. J1 became J4 and J4 became J7

The M74 was also renumbered and the directions reversed, 5 stayed the same but 4 and 6 swapped...
These are better examples as they are still on the motorway main line but now have different numbers. My 1979 Collins Atlas shows the original numbering of the M74. The M42 is shown open between the A34 and M6, but there are no junction numbers at all. It does show M11 junction 3 (Redbridge roundabout on the A12), which lost its motorway status when the A406 South Woodford to Barking Relief Road was opened.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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Chris5156 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 18:24
Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 15:25In France, the on-motorway sign has a little symbol that looks like a chopsticks, but with an arrow sticking out of it (with a number). In all these cases therefore, 'exit' is explicit, rather than 'junction'.
Consider also the equivalent term in other languages: sortie in French, ausfahrt in German, uit in Dutch, etc. which all mean “exit”, not “junction”.
Just caught this one, Wallonia is now adopting the French style of exit sign on its motorways. I vaguely recall the regional government in Namur described Belgium's current system as 'not very good'.

It is also notable that in French and Dutch at least exits and junctions between two motorways have exclusive names where we tend to use them interchangeably.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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wrinkly wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 14:23
KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:07
The last section to J1 was not opened until 1977 as I recall, in 1974 when I first drove down to London the M1 ended at J2.
As discussed in previous threads, the present J2, with no access to/from the A41, is the third version of J2. The first version, which was the southern terminus of the M1 for a while, was a bit further to the north, and its remains still show on the Landranger map, including a southbound slip road which went under the A1/A41 on the line of a former railway. The second version was a hybrid between the first layout and today's.
This is shown on the sabre maps 1968 OS map, although it is not drawn particularly well
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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Has always struck me as curious that the M1 has nowhere inward from Watford where you can join it towards London. There are exits at Elstree, a part-built junction with the A1 at Scratchwood never completed, and at Hendon, where you can get off, but nowhere to join inward, and the final stretch is notably lightly used.

In contrast the M11 into London is the opposite, it can be accessed at Chigwell towards London, but there's no outward-facing junction until Harlow, apart from the motorways-only interchange with the M25, which itself has no junction for several miles either side. As a result it's notably difficult for much of outer NE London, and adjacent Essex, to get to either M11 or indeed M25.

Now I understand the stated issue with M11 J5 at Chigwell, that if it was made full access the local road network would be swamped with inward-bound traffic, especially at peak periods when the M11 terminus queues back for several miles, indeed past J5. But why was the opposite approach taken with the M1 then.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by SouthWest Philip »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 15:18 Now I understand the stated issue with M11 J5 at Chigwell, that if it was made full access the local road network would be swamped with inward-bound traffic, especially at peak periods when the M11 terminus queues back for several miles, indeed past J5.
Which would be easily fixed, or at least reduced, by widening a single bridge on the southbound M11 from 2 to 3 lanes.

North facing slips at jnc 5 are well overdue.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 15:18 Has always struck me as curious that the M1 has nowhere inward from Watford where you can join it towards London. There are exits at Elstree, a part-built junction with the A1 at Scratchwood never completed, and at Hendon, where you can get off, but nowhere to join inward, and the final stretch is notably lightly used.

In contrast the M11 into London is the opposite, it can be accessed at Chigwell towards London, but there's no outward-facing junction until Harlow, apart from the motorways-only interchange with the M25, which itself has no junction for several miles either side. As a result it's notably difficult for much of outer NE London, and adjacent Essex, to get to either M11 or indeed M25.

Now I understand the stated issue with M11 J5 at Chigwell, that if it was made full access the local road network would be swamped with inward-bound traffic, especially at peak periods when the M11 terminus queues back for several miles, indeed past J5. But why was the opposite approach taken with the M1 then.
The Scratchwood junction, if completed, would have been a traditional two-bridge roundabout junction, so inbound traffic would have joined it from A1, allowing it to function as a bypass for the now-rammed A1/A41 Watford Way. But it's clear that the approach adopted was to distribute traffic away progressively in different directions as the motorway approached the southern terminus.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 15:18 Has always struck me as curious that the M1 has nowhere inward from Watford where you can join it towards London. There are exits at Elstree, a part-built junction with the A1 at Scratchwood never completed, and at Hendon, where you can get off, but nowhere to join inward, and the final stretch is notably lightly used.

In contrast the M11 into London is the opposite, it can be accessed at Chigwell towards London, but there's no outward-facing junction until Harlow, apart from the motorways-only interchange with the M25, which itself has no junction for several miles either side. As a result it's notably difficult for much of outer NE London, and adjacent Essex, to get to either M11 or indeed M25.

Now I understand the stated issue with M11 J5 at Chigwell, that if it was made full access the local road network would be swamped with inward-bound traffic, especially at peak periods when the M11 terminus queues back for several miles, indeed past J5. But why was the opposite approach taken with the M1 then.
There is, of course, the urban legend that J5 has no north facing slips because the Bank of England printing works are close by, and they didn't want to make it too easy for bank robbers to flee from the scene.

The M1's southern junctions were intended to distribute traffic over a wide area - the former M10 sending traffic towards the A6 and Barnet. Junction 4 sending traffic towards the A41 and A5. Junction 2 sending traffic onto the A1 towards the City, and junction 1 onto the north circular. Add the M25 to mix and the last few miles of the M1 are very quiet compared with the M11 which narrows and forks to the clockwise and anti-clockwise north circular. Anyone wishing to travel further into London from the M11 needs to turn off again, onto the A12, or via the A503 towards the West End, the latter being much lower capacity than the A1 or A41.

Simon
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by trickstat »

The M25 takes quite a lot of traffic going to parts of West London or to the M40 and M4 that, before it existed, would have gone to the end of the M1 to use the North Circular.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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M4Simon wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 17:29 The M1's southern junctions were intended to distribute traffic over a wide area - the former M10 sending traffic towards the A6 and Barnet. Junction 4 sending traffic towards the A41 and A5. Junction 2 sending traffic onto the A1 towards the City, and junction 1 onto the north circular. Add the M25 to mix and the last few miles of the M1 are very quiet compared with the M11 which narrows and forks to the clockwise and anti-clockwise north circular. Anyone wishing to travel further into London from the M11 needs to turn off again, onto the A12, or via the A503 towards the West End, the latter being much lower capacity than the A1 or A41.
The standard route now from the M11 to the West End is A406 to its southern terminus, A13, Limehouse Link, and onto The Embankment.

I accept the logic that the M1 junctions were to distribute across the N London suburbs. I get that the M11 approach was to avoid swamping the NE London and south Essex suburbs. What I don't get is how two completely opposite approaches were valid for the two roads.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 18:53
M4Simon wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 17:29 The M1's southern junctions were intended to distribute traffic over a wide area - the former M10 sending traffic towards the A6 and Barnet. Junction 4 sending traffic towards the A41 and A5. Junction 2 sending traffic onto the A1 towards the City, and junction 1 onto the north circular. Add the M25 to mix and the last few miles of the M1 are very quiet compared with the M11 which narrows and forks to the clockwise and anti-clockwise north circular. Anyone wishing to travel further into London from the M11 needs to turn off again, onto the A12, or via the A503 towards the West End, the latter being much lower capacity than the A1 or A41.
The standard route now from the M11 to the West End is A406 to its southern terminus, A13, Limehouse Link, and onto The Embankment.

I accept the logic that the M1 junctions were to distribute across the N London suburbs. I get that the M11 approach was to avoid swamping the NE London and south Essex suburbs. What I don't get is how two completely opposite approaches were valid for the two roads.
I wonder whether Junction 5 of the M11 being in Essex rather than Greater London made any difference? Perhaps there was opposition in places like Loughton and Chigwell to the idea of being on a major route in and out of London?
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 18:53
M4Simon wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 17:29 The M1's southern junctions were intended to distribute traffic over a wide area - the former M10 sending traffic towards the A6 and Barnet. Junction 4 sending traffic towards the A41 and A5. Junction 2 sending traffic onto the A1 towards the City, and junction 1 onto the north circular. Add the M25 to mix and the last few miles of the M1 are very quiet compared with the M11 which narrows and forks to the clockwise and anti-clockwise north circular. Anyone wishing to travel further into London from the M11 needs to turn off again, onto the A12, or via the A503 towards the West End, the latter being much lower capacity than the A1 or A41.
The standard route now from the M11 to the West End is A406 to its southern terminus, A13, Limehouse Link, and onto The Embankment.
Yes, it would be now. The last time I travelled from the M11 to the West End was when I lived in Stansted and a good friend of mine lived in a Uni hall just off Oxford Street. This was early 1990 and you could park on-street easily after 6:30pm in Westminster. I used to drive via the Waterworks roundabout then in on the A503 through Walthamstow, Blackhorse Road, Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters, Holloway Road then via Caledonian Road to Kings Cross then into the West End - can't recall the exact route. This pre-dates the South Woodford to Barking section of the A406 and also Limehouse tunnel and other improvements on the A13 corridor.
I accept the logic that the M1 junctions were to distribute across the N London suburbs. I get that the M11 approach was to avoid swamping the NE London and south Essex suburbs. What I don't get is how two completely opposite approaches were valid for the two roads.
I'm not sure this answers the question but the M25 to A406 is 13 miles via M1, and about 7 miles via the M11. The M1 section serves Watford (2 junctions including the original southern terminus or near enough) then there are two intermediate junctions before the A406 (A41 and A1 junctions), both major routes. The M11 crosses the M25 then there are no trunk roads (as they were designated when the motorways were built) until you reach the North Circular. So I think there is a logic in the different approaches taken on the M1 and M11.

Simon
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

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WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 18:53
M4Simon wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 17:29 The M1's southern junctions were intended to distribute traffic over a wide area - the former M10 sending traffic towards the A6 and Barnet. Junction 4 sending traffic towards the A41 and A5. Junction 2 sending traffic onto the A1 towards the City, and junction 1 onto the north circular. Add the M25 to mix and the last few miles of the M1 are very quiet compared with the M11 which narrows and forks to the clockwise and anti-clockwise north circular. Anyone wishing to travel further into London from the M11 needs to turn off again, onto the A12, or via the A503 towards the West End, the latter being much lower capacity than the A1 or A41.
The standard route now from the M11 to the West End is A406 to its southern terminus, A13, Limehouse Link, and onto The Embankment.

I accept the logic that the M1 junctions were to distribute across the N London suburbs. I get that the M11 approach was to avoid swamping the NE London and south Essex suburbs. What I don't get is how two completely opposite approaches were valid for the two roads.
The answer lies in what wasn't built rather than what was. The layouts make more sense if you apply the Ringways to them. The M1 was going to suck traffic in from all over the Home Counties if you allowed it to join inside Ringway 3, and given there are rail options there with the numerous tube and national rail lines around Watford inwards to discourage car commuting, it makes sense to not allow it. The M11, on the other hand, served mostly fields and had no real nearby rail at the time unless you count the far extremities of the Central Line so letting traffic join inbound wasn't as big a problem.

If you look at the Ringways plans it's obvious the GLC was not intending them to be a commuter network like in Los Angeles, all the connections are semi-strategic with select access points only at major radial points. Even in 1966 it was obvious London had finite space for car commuting hence why they were still building tube lines.
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Scratchwood »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 16:11
WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 15:18 Has always struck me as curious that the M1 has nowhere inward from Watford where you can join it towards London. There are exits at Elstree, a part-built junction with the A1 at Scratchwood never completed, and at Hendon, where you can get off, but nowhere to join inward, and the final stretch is notably lightly used.

In contrast the M11 into London is the opposite, it can be accessed at Chigwell towards London, but there's no outward-facing junction until Harlow, apart from the motorways-only interchange with the M25, which itself has no junction for several miles either side. As a result it's notably difficult for much of outer NE London, and adjacent Essex, to get to either M11 or indeed M25.

Now I understand the stated issue with M11 J5 at Chigwell, that if it was made full access the local road network would be swamped with inward-bound traffic, especially at peak periods when the M11 terminus queues back for several miles, indeed past J5. But why was the opposite approach taken with the M1 then.
The Scratchwood junction, if completed, would have been a traditional two-bridge roundabout junction, so inbound traffic would have joined it from A1, allowing it to function as a bypass for the now-rammed A1/A41 Watford Way. But it's clear that the approach adopted was to distribute traffic away progressively in different directions as the motorway approached the southern terminus.
That Scratchwood connection to the A1 at Stirling Corner would still be incredibly useful, as we have the daft situation of the A1/A41 being clogged up through Mill Hill, with a relatively empty M1 right next door and underutilised. Indeed coming into London from the anticlockwise M25, although it's a lot further it's a pleasanter journey to come in on the A405/M1 rather than the A1 (even with the daft lack of southbound slip roads from the M25 to M1).

It just feels like a massive waste of money to cause all that destruction south of J2, for a road that so few can use!
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Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Bryn666 »

Scratchwood wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 15:31
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 16:11
WHBM wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 15:18 Has always struck me as curious that the M1 has nowhere inward from Watford where you can join it towards London. There are exits at Elstree, a part-built junction with the A1 at Scratchwood never completed, and at Hendon, where you can get off, but nowhere to join inward, and the final stretch is notably lightly used.

In contrast the M11 into London is the opposite, it can be accessed at Chigwell towards London, but there's no outward-facing junction until Harlow, apart from the motorways-only interchange with the M25, which itself has no junction for several miles either side. As a result it's notably difficult for much of outer NE London, and adjacent Essex, to get to either M11 or indeed M25.

Now I understand the stated issue with M11 J5 at Chigwell, that if it was made full access the local road network would be swamped with inward-bound traffic, especially at peak periods when the M11 terminus queues back for several miles, indeed past J5. But why was the opposite approach taken with the M1 then.
The Scratchwood junction, if completed, would have been a traditional two-bridge roundabout junction, so inbound traffic would have joined it from A1, allowing it to function as a bypass for the now-rammed A1/A41 Watford Way. But it's clear that the approach adopted was to distribute traffic away progressively in different directions as the motorway approached the southern terminus.
That Scratchwood connection to the A1 at Stirling Corner would still be incredibly useful, as we have the daft situation of the A1/A41 being clogged up through Mill Hill, with a relatively empty M1 right next door and underutilised. Indeed coming into London from the anticlockwise M25, although it's a lot further it's a pleasanter journey to come in on the A405/M1 rather than the A1 (even with the daft lack of southbound slip roads from the M25 to M1).

It just feels like a massive waste of money to cause all that destruction south of J2, for a road that so few can use!
I'd argue we should be building the Scratchwood Link and adding missing slips at J4 and then redesigning the A41/A1 south of there to turn back into a more local route not dominated by traffic. This would allow traffic with a reason to drive into London a more appropriate corridor and increase safety on the A1/A41 no end. It's a golf course in the way, I've no love lost for golf so won't be sad to see that removed.
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