M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Scratchwood
Member
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 21:44
Location: London

M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Scratchwood »

Just like the M11 and M23, the M1 should have gone further into London, yet unlike those other motorways, the M1 tidily ends at Junction 1 on the A406. Was the M1 renumbered at some point, as surely its numbers should have taken into account this missing section down to Ringway 1? Or was it expected to end at Junction 0?

Indeed while I understand why they haven't been renumbered what we have now (due to the cost and confusion it would cause), but in general the junction numbers are a bit rubbish, seeing that they go
1
2
4
5
6
6a
7/8
9
With 3 (Scratchwood) missing, the most important junction with the M25 shoehorned in as 6a and the (formerly separate) M10 and A414 junctions, now one combined junction called 7/8.
User avatar
M4Simon
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 10121
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2002 22:35
Location: WGC, Herts
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by M4Simon »

Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 14:47 Just like the M11 and M23, the M1 should have gone further into London, yet unlike those other motorways, the M1 tidily ends at Junction 1 on the A406. Was the M1 renumbered at some point, as surely its numbers should have taken into account this missing section down to Ringway 1? Or was it expected to end at Junction 0?

Indeed while I understand why they haven't been renumbered what we have now (due to the cost and confusion it would cause), but in general the junction numbers are a bit rubbish, seeing that they go
1
2
4
5
6
6a
7/8
9
With 3 (Scratchwood) missing, the most important junction with the M25 shoehorned in as 6a and the (formerly separate) M10 and A414 junctions, now one combined junction called 7/8.
My 1973 Barts Atlas shows 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and so on in the places you'd expect them. I don't think the southern end of the M1 has ever been renumbered. I don't know for certain but I think that the southern extension to Ringway 1 would have been abandoned before the junctions were numbered.

The current junction numbers are better thought of as exit numbers. Junctions 7 and 8 were linked by collector-distributor roads when the motorway was widened to full D4 between J6A and 10, but exit 7 takes you onto the A414 (ex M10) towards Park Street and exit 8 takes you on the A414 towards Hemel. Junction 6A is an additional junction and received the A suffix as, at the time it was built, junction 7 was an entirely stand-alone junction.

You are quite right that there are reasons not to renumber the junction. The M25 has crossed the M1 at junction 6A for the last 35 years and is well known. There is no point in throwing money at changing it.

Off the top of my head I can only think of one (there must be more) existing junction number that has been amended as a result of a new motorway being slotted in, which is the former M4 J23, now known as J23A, at Magor. This was associated with the complete re-routing of part of the M4 over the Second Severn Crossing, creating the M48 motorway out of the original route. As a result of this work, new junctions 21, 22 and 23 were built, but only the original J23 remained on the M4, hence it was renumbered. The others were relocated, in the case of J22 from Wales into England!

Simon
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

Please contact me if you want to know more
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35754
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Bryn666 »

I think the M1 junction numbers pre-date some of the Ringways. That said, there were no further junctions planned between Staples Corner and Ringway 1 so presumably the M1 would've started at a "J0" in any case.

The M6 and M1 got their junction numbers very early on - 1966ish springs to mind.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19201
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by KeithW »

When the first section opened it ran from the temporary terminus at J5 to Crick (J18)

As I recall the London Terminus at some stages was much farther in but by the final stage of the planning J0 could have been at least as far south as Cricklewood. Aerial photos show space was left for it.

Going back to the Ringways Scheme the M1 would have terminated on the North Cross Route at Kilburn

See this from Google Earth 1945
Attachments
Cricklewood 1945.jpg
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by wrinkly »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 16:48 The M6 and M1 got their junction numbers very early on - 1966ish springs to mind.
I think most motorways that then existed got them at the same time, except Ax(M)s, non-trunk motorways and very short ones.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Chris5156 »

Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 14:47 Just like the M11 and M23, the M1 should have gone further into London, yet unlike those other motorways, the M1 tidily ends at Junction 1 on the A406. Was the M1 renumbered at some point, as surely its numbers should have taken into account this missing section down to Ringway 1? Or was it expected to end at Junction 0?
There would have been no other junctions between Staples Corner (J1) and Ringway 1, so no other junction numbers were required. Typically a motorway that begins at a junction with another motorway won’t have its own number for that junction - see, for example, the M18 whose first junction north of the M1 is J1, or the M32 whose first junction after the M4 is J1. In the case of the M1, Staples Corner would be the first junction after the start of the motorway so it is junction 1.

Whether the M1/Ringway 1 interchange would have had a junction number at all, or what it would have been… nobody knows!
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Steven »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:58
Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 14:47 Just like the M11 and M23, the M1 should have gone further into London, yet unlike those other motorways, the M1 tidily ends at Junction 1 on the A406. Was the M1 renumbered at some point, as surely its numbers should have taken into account this missing section down to Ringway 1? Or was it expected to end at Junction 0?
There would have been no other junctions between Staples Corner (J1) and Ringway 1, so no other junction numbers were required. Typically a motorway that begins at a junction with another motorway won’t have its own number for that junction - see, for example, the M18 whose first junction north of the M1 is J1, or the M32 whose first junction after the M4 is J1. In the case of the M1, Staples Corner would be the first junction after the start of the motorway so it is junction 1.

Whether the M1/Ringway 1 interchange would have had a junction number at all, or what it would have been… nobody knows!
However, when the M1 was planned to go even further into London to meet the A Ring motorway, then there would have been an intermediate junction with A407 Cricklewood Lane. However, this was binned in favour of ending on Ringway 1 (né the B Ring) before motorway junction numbers were thought of.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Chris5156 »

Steven wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:03However, when the M1 was planned to go even further into London to meet the A Ring motorway, then there would have been an intermediate junction with A407 Cricklewood Lane. However, this was binned in favour of ending on Ringway 1 (né the B Ring) before motorway junction numbers were thought of.
On motorways as old as the M1, the date on which junction numbers were introduced nationwide gives you a snapshot of what was planned at that time - interesting to think that, if they’d been introduced a few years earlier, we’d have a whole different set of oddities and questions about junction numbering, including very likely the M1 starting at J2 or 3 at Staples Corner.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19201
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by KeithW »

Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 14:47 Just like the M11 and M23, the M1 should have gone further into London, yet unlike those other motorways, the M1 tidily ends at Junction 1 on the A406. Was the M1 renumbered at some point, as surely its numbers should have taken into account this missing section down to Ringway 1? Or was it expected to end at Junction 0?
If you look at documents such as the 1959 London to Yorkshire motorway the file shows the first junction at around J4. Clearly there were intended to be junctions farther in some of which were built such as J1 but others were never implemented as between 1959 and 1977 when J1 opened the background story had changed, the extension to Ringway 1 was not going to happen. The early planners were pragmatic enough not forecast which junctions beyond the 1959 scheme would be built and and of course did not specify junction numbers at all.

The last section to J1 was not opened until 1977 as I recall, in 1974 when I first drove down to London the M1 ended at J2.
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by wrinkly »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:07
The last section to J1 was not opened until 1977 as I recall, in 1974 when I first drove down to London the M1 ended at J2.
As discussed in previous threads, the present J2, with no access to/from the A41, is the third version of J2. The first version, which was the southern terminus of the M1 for a while, was a bit further to the north, and its remains still show on the Landranger map, including a southbound slip road which went under the A1/A41 on the line of a former railway. The second version was a hybrid between the first layout and today's.
Peter Freeman
Member
Posts: 1387
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 07:52
Location: Exits 9 & 10, M1 East, Melbourne, Australia

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Peter Freeman »

M4Simon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 15:28 The current junction numbers are better thought of as exit numbers. Junctions 7 and 8 were linked by collector-distributor roads when the motorway was widened to full D4 between J6A and 10, but exit 7 takes you onto the A414 (ex M10) towards Park Street and exit 8 takes you on the A414 towards Hemel.
(my bold above)

Indeed, many countries refer to them on signs as 'exit nn'.

In the UK, the sign's little black square containing a number is universally recognised as a junction number. It is, by implication, a junction number, since the little black square also appears on signs as you approach the junction from the non-motorway.

In Australia, not all motorway exits are numbered, but, where they are, the word 'exit' appears on the motorway signs but not even the number on the non-motorway signs. Similarly in USA (I think ...). In France, the on-motorway sign has a little symbol that looks like a chopsticks, but with an arrow sticking out of it (with a number). In all these cases therefore, 'exit' is explicit, rather than 'junction'.

It does make more sense to think of them as exits. You don't need to know the junction number when approaching a motorway: you're simply going to enter it, if it's the correct motorway and it's going towards your destination; otherwise, you're not. Whereas, when actually on the motorway, it's important to know that you're exiting at the correct point.

Also, complex junctions may have more than one exit, and they can be individually numbered (as they are in AU and USA, usually employing alpha suffixes)). M1 J7/8 could be considered as one of these.
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by wrinkly »

Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 15:25
In the UK, the sign's little black square containing a number is universally recognised as a junction number. It is, by implication, a junction number, since the little black square also appears on signs as you approach the junction from the non-motorway.
As far as I know they've always been officially called junction numbers rather than anything else. However, while they sometimes appear on signs on the non-motorway approach, they more often don't appear there.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Chris5156 »

Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 15:25In France, the on-motorway sign has a little symbol that looks like a chopsticks, but with an arrow sticking out of it (with a number). In all these cases therefore, 'exit' is explicit, rather than 'junction'.
Consider also the equivalent term in other languages: sortie in French, ausfahrt in German, uit in Dutch, etc. which all mean “exit”, not “junction”.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19201
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by KeithW »

wrinkly wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 17:38
As far as I know they've always been officially called junction numbers rather than anything else. However, while they sometimes appear on signs on the non-motorway approach, they more often don't appear there.
Yes - when I head to London from Teesside via the A19 I use J33 of the A1(M) as an entrance, when I drive back its an exit. It is however always a junction just as the connection between the A19 and A174.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35754
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 18:24
Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 15:25In France, the on-motorway sign has a little symbol that looks like a chopsticks, but with an arrow sticking out of it (with a number). In all these cases therefore, 'exit' is explicit, rather than 'junction'.
Consider also the equivalent term in other languages: sortie in French, ausfahrt in German, uit in Dutch, etc. which all mean “exit”, not “junction”.
Although interestingly the French exit symbol is now used on entrances to motorways which now show the exit number and the autoroute number. The old practice of just having a start of motorway sign has been deprecated.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 23:13
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 18:24
Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 15:25In France, the on-motorway sign has a little symbol that looks like a chopsticks, but with an arrow sticking out of it (with a number). In all these cases therefore, 'exit' is explicit, rather than 'junction'.
Consider also the equivalent term in other languages: sortie in French, ausfahrt in German, uit in Dutch, etc. which all mean “exit”, not “junction”.
Although interestingly the French exit symbol is now used on entrances to motorways which now show the exit number and the autoroute number. The old practice of just having a start of motorway sign has been deprecated.
I'd forgotten about that! Very true. Here's an random example.
mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by mikehindsonevans »

M4Simon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 15:28
Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 14:47 Just like the M11 and M23, the M1 should have gone further into London, yet unlike those other motorways, the M1 tidily ends at Junction 1 on the A406. Was the M1 renumbered at some point, as surely its numbers should have taken into account this missing section down to Ringway 1? Or was it expected to end at Junction 0?

Indeed while I understand why they haven't been renumbered what we have now (due to the cost and confusion it would cause), but in general the junction numbers are a bit rubbish, seeing that they go
1
2
4
5
6
6a
7/8
9
With 3 (Scratchwood) missing, the most important junction with the M25 shoehorned in as 6a and the (formerly separate) M10 and A414 junctions, now one combined junction called 7/8.
My 1973 Barts Atlas shows 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and so on in the places you'd expect them. I don't think the southern end of the M1 has ever been renumbered. I don't know for certain but I think that the southern extension to Ringway 1 would have been abandoned before the junctions were numbered.

The current junction numbers are better thought of as exit numbers. Junctions 7 and 8 were linked by collector-distributor roads when the motorway was widened to full D4 between J6A and 10, but exit 7 takes you onto the A414 (ex M10) towards Park Street and exit 8 takes you on the A414 towards Hemel. Junction 6A is an additional junction and received the A suffix as, at the time it was built, junction 7 was an entirely stand-alone junction.

You are quite right that there are reasons not to renumber the junction. The M25 has crossed the M1 at junction 6A for the last 35 years and is well known. There is no point in throwing money at changing it.

Off the top of my head I can only think of one (there must be more) existing junction number that has been amended as a result of a new motorway being slotted in, which is the former M4 J23, now known as J23A, at Magor. This was associated with the complete re-routing of part of the M4 over the Second Severn Crossing, creating the M48 motorway out of the original route. As a result of this work, new junctions 21, 22 and 23 were built, but only the original J23 remained on the M4, hence it was renumbered. The others were relocated, in the case of J22 from Wales into England!

Simon
"...junction number changed as a result of a new motorway". Remember the M60 - created (around the turn of the century) when the M66 alignment east of Manchester was finally completed.

The M63-M62-M66 motorway box was renumbered, anchored on the M62 junction numbers up Death Valley from Swinton eastwards.
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
M4Simon
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 10121
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2002 22:35
Location: WGC, Herts
Contact:

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by M4Simon »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 04:14
"...junction number changed as a result of a new motorway". Remember the M60 - created (around the turn of the century) when the M66 alignment east of Manchester was finally completed.

The M63-M62-M66 motorway box was renumbered, anchored on the M62 junction numbers up Death Valley from Swinton eastwards.
That was the creation of a new motorway out of bits of old motorway, just as the M48 was created out of bits of the M4 and part of the M621 used to be the M1. My example of M4 J23 was the renumbering of an existing junction on an existing motorway to a different number on the same motorway. I can't think of another place where that has happened.

Simon
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

Please contact me if you want to know more
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by c2R »

M4Simon wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 06:35
That was the creation of a new motorway out of bits of old motorway, just as the M48 was created out of bits of the M4 and part of the M621 used to be the M1. My example of M4 J23 was the renumbering of an existing junction on an existing motorway to a different number on the same motorway. I can't think of another place where that has happened.
This might not quite be the same either, but:

The M42 was extended and junctions were renumbered on the existing motorway, i.e. J1 became J4 and J4 became J7

The M74 was also renumbered and the directions reversed, 5 stayed the same but 4 and 6 swapped...
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
SteelCamel
Member
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 15:46

Re: M1 Junction numbers (at the London end)

Post by SteelCamel »

M4Simon wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 06:35 That was the creation of a new motorway out of bits of old motorway, just as the M48 was created out of bits of the M4 and part of the M621 used to be the M1. My example of M4 J23 was the renumbering of an existing junction on an existing motorway to a different number on the same motorway. I can't think of another place where that has happened.
There's also the old junctions 1-3 of the M74, which became 2A, 3, and 3A when the extension opened.
Post Reply